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In Reply to: Yes, posted by Frank. on October 01, 2003 at 14:33:35:
What 24/96 converters sound exactly like what DSD converters? I would like to know what your reference for "executed in the utmost way" is.Are you saying you have reached a point where there is no room for improvement in your 24/96 ADCs and DACs/DSD ADCs and DACs and that these perfect recorders sound the same?
Heck, I cannot even get one piece of wire perfect!
Follow Ups:
"What 24/96 converters sound exactly like what DSD converters? I would like to know what your reference for "executed in the utmost way" is."At the moment that's a full blown Meridian system.
It is capable of he very high spl levels at very low distortion that are needed to reveal the hires advantage.
Throw in farao classics Walkure recording or the Canadian Brass disc and enjoy."Are you saying you have reached a point where there is no room for improvement in your 24/96 ADCs and DACs/DSD ADCs and DACs and that these perfect recorders sound the same?"
No,
As long there are 3 or 4 bits of improvement left with 24 bit pcm there always will be room for improvement.
Nobody has reached the full resolution that 24bit pcm is capable of.So far my experience is that improvements in analog circuitry still reveals more detail from 16 bit redbook.
To appreciate hires' improvements we do need even better analog equipment to reveal whats hires digital audio is truly capable of.However we will not experience this as a giant leap, simply because we are not able to.
We can't trust our own ears anymore to judge these matters.I do believe that pcm has a clear advantage because there is this room for improvement far beyond we humans are able to hear.
"Heck, I cannot even get one piece of wire perfect!"
Good enough will do.
Frank
"I do believe that pcm has a clear advantage because there is this room for improvement far beyond we humans are able to hear."Perhaps it will be more suitable for ants. That is a very large untapped market. Trillions and trillions.
If I may paraphrase your point, it seems to be that "everything matters". That includes recording studio, equipment & setup, mixing & mastering, playback hardware & setup, listening room, etc. To that I'll add personal preference. The dilemma is that the difference between hi-res formats doesn't seem to be great enough to transcend the effect of all the other variables. And there's no way to control all the variables required to make a truly isolated comparison of formats. So for the moment we're all stuck reaching different conclusions. It's not like comparing CD to vinyl, where anybody with a midrange system who isn't tone deaf can tell the two apart regardless of other variables.Don't get me wrong, I like hearing everybody's different views. I just don't think any conclusions are going to be reached in the DSD vs. PCM quality debate at least until a generational leap in hardware occurs.
Dave
That is why we need tweakers working on these converters and recorders. The Pro industry has and is usually behind the audiophiles in sound.....not always....but they generally lack the tweak element. Not so with tube/analog people....Look at a Walker Turntable and Walker phonostage, etc. These things are really tweak!!!! The Meitner and DCS stuff is full of op amps, too many filters, not great parts, not really tweaked!!!! So, that no matter what you feed these converters some of the real resolution is lost before it even gets into the ADC chip. For instance, Chesky got their first DCS ADC several years ago to start recording in 24/96. There was an article in a magazine that quoted them saying they were going to put a tubed input into it. I talked to Bob Katz about 6 months after the mag. article and asked him what Chesky had done to the DCS ADC. He told me that they did not put a tubed input in it, instead they had removed several op amps that it did not need for much better sound!!! This is just the beginning....we need the analog tweakers to get a hold of these converters and really tweak them out to see what is really possible.See, I really don't care which format is better....really...I just want them both taken to the absolute max...My sense is that when done this way, the difference will be minor and no one will care because either one of them will sound considerably better than what we are currently hearing. As David Robinson of Positive Feedback says...."I don't drive stock".....however, he is now using a "stock" Meitner converter because it sounds better than his modified Sony SCD-1.....Well David, time to modify the Meitner...and on it goes....into infinity.....
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