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DVD-Audiobahn

claiming to show a person's bias means little to data derived from DBT.

69.227.190.162

In Reply to: RE: Here's my standard reply posted by Ted Smith on January 01, 2008 at 12:51:16

First, WE ALL HAVE BIAS. They have put forth scientific data. Either dispute the data, or the methodology. OR, do your own testing showing otherwise. DBT that is. The truth is that audio memory is SO SHORT, (as to be nearly useless) that claims of persons that this CD player allows longer decay time for the music than that CD or SACD player fly in the face of neurology. We don't mentally store decay time to compare, so if the sources are not instantly AB switched, such claims are witchcraft. We express our musical preferences, and hopes ("these sound better than those". IF hi-rez sounded appreciably better someone would have proven such and used it to sell hardware!!! But since Sony, nor Warners nor anybody else put out such a study, despite the $$ value, claims of superiority should be treated with suspicion, if not downright distrust.

And, saying that, I listen almost exclusively to hi-rez. Why? Don't know, don't care.

Follow Ups:

Look closer at the paper and the claimed results. - Ted Smith 16:07:12 01/02/08 (5)
Howdy

The only reason bias was brought up was that when people expect a certain answer they don't necessarily take care to design a fair test that might invalidate their expectations. It's precisely when tests show something unexpected that real progress is made.

In this case (among other problems) for a portion of the experiment (and not separated in the data) they used equipment that has a noise floor higher than that representable by Redbook: so one wouldn't expect to hear the additional resolution from hi-res.

Their responses to questions also indicate that the care that most audiophiles might take wasn't really considered.

When they found out that if you turned up the volume a little you could hear a difference between hi-res and hi-res trimmed back to CD resolution they changed equipment.

Their bias also shows up in the claim that this test shows something about CD players when (at best) it may show something about comparing hi-res to lower res (with a particular algo), but it doesn't address at all problems with playing CDs with real players: e.g. error handling, jitter handling, filtering with any different algo than they tested...

They even admitted that there is a difference in practice, but they attributed it to mastering differences with no supporting evidence. We know from long history here that there is little reason to believe that that is the biggest difference and we know of a lot of counterexamples: not the least of which are the many SACDs who's Redbook layer is mechanically derived from the DSD layer and hence are clearly mastered the same.

-Ted
- Good points (NT) - unclestu52 14:23:16 01/06/08 (0)
  Stu
- RE: Look closer at the paper and the claimed results. - Dan Banquer 07:36:02 01/03/08 (1)
  One of the most important things that jj pointed out for double blind tests, is that the people who are taking the tests must be trained as to what to listen for. I know of no consumer magazine who has bothered to train the people who are taking the tests.
  "When they found out that if you turned up the volume a little you could hear a difference between hi-res and hi-res trimmed back to CD resolution they changed equipment."
  Anyone with a basic practical knowledge understands that if you wish to reproduce digital audio to what it is capable of you will need, quiet electronics, quiet rooms, and speakers with very good low level linearity.
  But hey, why cloud the issues with facts?
  d.b.
  - this statement completely cancels their results. - Duilawyer 12:56:44 01/06/08 (0)
    if you turned up the volume a little you could hear a difference between hi-res and hi-res trimmed back to CD. Then not the same. Not its a matter of which is better? But there is an audible difference. Maybe ebcaue of increasd sn you need louder volumes to hear the diffeence.
- Now THAT'S SCIENCE. Good points. nt - Duilawyer 16:38:46 01/02/08 (1)
  .
  - Thanks - Ted Smith 16:44:52 01/02/08 (0)
    Howdy
    
    But you'll sure find a cadre of people with conflicting opinions on Prop Heads :)
    
    -Ted

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