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In Reply to: the problem is that the "simpler recording chain" is more marketing hype than reality ... posted by Christine Tham on August 27, 2004 at 15:21:49:
>> having said that though, i do agree that the "pure-DSD" recordings can sound breathtakingly good! there is something about the clarity of a pure DSD recording that PCM somehow doesn't quite capture :-(
<<Hi Christine, you should hook-up a medium-to-high-end DVD-A player (e.g. at LEAST the -5900, but maybe a Linn or Esoteric or Meridian etc.) and then compare the sound with your better-than-average SACD machine.
And then to hear "clarity" you should properly audition the following "pure PCM" titles (all stunning 96/24 5.1 original recordings) which I understand you may have in your collection:-
Bach, St. Matthaus Passion (Teldec);
Shostakovich, Symph 5&6 (Arts) -- esp the very last track: "Presto";
Vivaldi, L'Estro Armonico (Arts);
Handel, Messiah (Arts);
Chopin, Four-Ballades (AIX);
Latin Jazz Trio (AIX);
Marcello, Handel & Vivaldi (AIX).Cheers
Follow Ups:
here is a list of "medium to high end" players i have listened to on my system:- Denon DVD-A1
- Denon DVD-3800
- Linn Unidisk 2.1
- EAD 8000 Pro
- Toshiba SD-9200I think you will agree these are pretty good players, with prices ranging from A$4000 (same price i paid for my SACD player) to A$14000.
And have you audditioned the above titles I listed in any of those machines? (I.M.O. the -3800 and the Tosh 9200 are not great machines, by today's standard, while the -A1 has inferior bass management to the -5900.).p.s. I defy any SACD title to improve on the sound quality and overall clarity of the ones I listed. I mean, just check-out the strings on the L'Estro Armonico title, the HF percussion and "tinkle" sounds on Latin Jazz Trio, or the Steinway Piano in the Chopin. :)
well, i do have st matthew's passion as per your recommendation, and i have listened to that on some of the players - not all, though.even though i haven't listened to the dvd-a11 yet, i've been told the dvd-a1 has a superior sound by denon themselves. bass management is not an issue because i always turn it off for maximum transparency.
i would buy the denon dvd-a1 tomorrow for the sound, except it is now obsolete and besides the video quality is too soft for me. the BB 1704 are still the *best* PCM dac around, imho. the 1792 or whatever may have better specs, but it is a hybrid dac whereas the BB1704 is a *pure* PCM DAC - no sigma delta.
as for you "defying" sacd titles to improve on your favourite titles, perhaps you should actually widen your experience of listening to sacd beyond the 1 title that you own, or have you bought more titles recently?
PS - the toshiba has a very nice, tight, and crystal clear sound. i don't think it loses ground compared to any of the new players, except in the video department. the 3800 i never really liked, so it definitely doesn't stand quite as tall as the others.
> > perhaps you should actually widen your experience of listening to sacd beyond the 1 title that you own, or have you bought more titles recently? < <Hi Christine, Believe me, if there was a compelling reason for me to buy SACDs I would. However, presently I’m pretty-much maxed-out on music purchases recently (budget-wise, and also time-available-to-listen-wise). Honestly, I’ve got a backlog to actually listen to now! And not enough time at present. :-)
For example, I’ve bought most of the latest Naxos classical DVD-As. Moreover, why should I buy the SACD versions of these, when the DVD-A gives me the original pristine 24-bit LPCM recording?
The same goes for my recently bought DVD-As of: Abbado — Beethoven Symphonies nos. 1&3 and 5&6 (Deutsche Grammophon), and Bjork’s "Medulla". All hirez PCM recordings. The Medulla DVD-A gives me a half-hour video documentary too.
I also recently bought (or pre-ordered): Santana "Supernatural" Jarre’s "Aero"; Polyphonic Spree; Porcupine Tree; Emerson Lake Palmer "Brain Salad Surgery"; etc. etc. — none of which are available on SACD, and if they were, they’d just be conversions of the PCM masters. (And much of the stuff on SACD is originally PCM anyway).
But I don’t want PCM conversions to SACD. I’d rather have the original recording on DVD-A. Plus, I also use my Denon A-11’s internal 32-bit bass management and time-alignment which works transparently on LPCM sources and gives a fantastic wrap-around soundfield.
So for me there is no need for SACD, or DSD. Moreover, to me, a "DSD" title cannot be "pure" unless the recording was done as a raw ‘back-to-back’ ADC-to-DAC, with no intermediate processing steps, and no mixing or even level changes! But there are very few of those around (if any). And if there are, there are certainly none that interest me.
So to wrap-up, SACD (DSD in particular) — in audio terms — is a "solution" to a "problem" that never existed. Indeed, the real purpose was to ensure an exclusive revenue-stream for its creators. And that I will not buy.
*** Moreover, to me, a "DSD" title cannot be "pure" unless the recording was done as a raw ‘back-to-back’ ADC-to-DAC, with no intermediate processing steps, and no mixing or even level changes! But there are very few of those around (if any). ***There are more than quite a few. if you send me email, i'll be happy to suggest some.
In fact, DSD's lack of processing "encourages" minimalist approaches to recording, which suits me just fine. even for pcm, i prefer minimalist recordings - i've noticed that cool edit, even when processing in 32 bit floating point, introduces subtle degradations in the sound with each processing step. perhaps i'm imagining it, but if you look very closely at the waveforms, you can see that multiple processing steps do alter the samples slightly over time. i am a great believer in "point the mike, set the right level, press record, and that's it." no processing except perhaps to trim the edges.
my point was - if you have never heard a pure DSD recording, then you really have no idea how good (or bad) it can be.
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