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In Reply to: Re: Preference vs Fact posted by Rich on May 02, 2001 at 14:47:46:
Hello Rich -keep in mind here that i'm knocking any format - this is just my take on the situation.
i think that a non-sampling rate dependent system may be more accurate in terms of the possibility for detail retrieval, but i'm not sure it would be more accurate in the sonic sense when comparing vinyl to cd. how on earth is a rock sludging itself through the peaks and valleys of some plastic compound going to be more accurate than a laser reading 1's and 0's? the possibility for error here is waaaay less - ie, more accurate. if we're talking about subjective musical preferences and ideas about accuracy, i for one would rather not waste the bandwidth.
actually, the fact that vinyl actually works is pretty amazing to me - but then again i'm a youngster round these parts and i'm just now looking for a tt for myself.
why is the cd vs vinyl debate so big? i never got that in my few months here in the asylum.
good day,
chiggy
Follow Ups:
***how on earth is a rock sludging itself through the peaks and valleys of some plastic compound going to be more accurate than a laser reading 1's and 0's?***If the detail isn't there, it doesn't matter how accurate the playback is.
{If the detail isn't there, it doesn't matter how accurate the playback is. }you're right.
but with regards to vinyl - if the detail is there and there's no way to extract all of it, what's the point? cd's are more detailed because their detail retrival is more accurate and consistent - no two ways about it - the ability of a cd player to extract and convey 1's and 0's located on a shiny little disc is going to be more accurate than any record player extracting info from a disc - whether it sounds good is the issue here in the asylum.
ie, whether or not a media playback apparatus causes happy neurons to release happy chemicals (paraphrased from the original uninformed post) can successfully accomplish it's task is something i suppose we're fishing around for here. different roads but probably the same goals.
good day,
chiggy
::: detail retrival is more accurate and consistent - no two ways about it - the ability of a cd player to extract and convey 1's and 0's located on a shiny little disc is going to be more accurate than any record player extracting info from a disc :::My listening experiences prove to me that the opposite of what many of you in this thread are saying is true: in general CD still has a long way to go as do SACD(gasp!shock!horror!) viz analog-
and analog can achieve far greater detail recovery even from a deck that costs US$2,000 that a US$10,000 CD system could only begin to match.
Having said that I do believe that the (distant) future of audio belongs to digital. For convenience I am going digital in the present and will also get a decently priced but comparative to digital Class A + + + + + performing analog deck later on.
0101010101010101010
"WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT!"
[and analog can achieve far greater detail recovery even from a deck that costs US$2,000 that a US$10,000 CD system could only begin to match.]hello thewho -
i'll have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. just a few months ago i went to a local linn/arcam/rega dealer to check out some cd players. the dealer was a pretty cool guy and played a bunch of stuff for me over an all out active linn system - the cute little amps and all! we played various pieces ranging from chamber to hard bop jazz and even some radiohead on several sources - i don't know much about the lp12, but it was a really loaded up one - arm, cartridge, power supply - playing through a linto (i think that's it); this setup is well over $10k. we also listened to the arcam 7se and 9 cd players, rega 9 and 25 tt's, the genki (2K), ikemi (4K) and the cd12 (20K).
with regards to detail, the lowly 7se spanked the linn tt. it wasn't close. what sounded better? the TT. it better have for that much scratch. the arcam 9 got pretty close with regards to sound quality - different, but close. switching over to a genki was a revelation - the tt got destroyed in almost every area EXCEPT for a lack of a coherent sound - the tt was still a bit more focused. lets not even go near what the ikemi and cd12 did.
please keep in mind i'm not knocking vinyl in any way - it has a beautiful sound all it's own. but detail, extension, consistency in playback (that's important to me) and convenience can't touch digital media. it's just a better detail retrieval system imo. i think that tt's sound pretty damn good - but i'm not going to kid myself into thinking it is a format that has detail comparable to cd.
that's my story and i'm stickin to it. of course, your mileage may vary.
good night,
chiggy
Not much of a story. Without having it in your home for extended audition, you basically know nothing about any of the gear you auditioned. All you know is that the comparison was close to your ear. What you don't know is whether the LP12 is any good, or whether it was setup properly. You don't know anything about the cartridge. You don't know if VTA, overhang or azimuth were set properly. You don't know if the LP was quality. As such, why bother saying anything?
Rich wrote:"Not much of a story. Without having it in your home for extended audition, you basically know nothing about any of the gear you auditioned."
Not much of a reply. The original "story" was just a straight-forward comparison at a dealers, the sort we all do. If it had no value, we wouldn't do it.
"All you know is that the comparison was close to your ear. What you don't know is whether the LP12 is any good, or whether it was setup properly. You don't know anything about the cartridge. You don't know if VTA, overhang or azimuth were set properly. You don't know if the LP was quality."
It was a Linn dealer who was presumably intent on making a sale, so the chances are pretty strong that the LP12 was well set up with a decent cartridge. As for questioning the LP quality, would you question the CD quality if he came to the opposite conclusion?
"As such, why bother saying anything?"
Maybe he was just interested in a little hifi discussion at the good ol' Asylum?
Daniel Espley
***Not much of a reply. The original "story" was just a straight-forward comparison at a dealers, the sort we all do. If it had no value, we wouldn't do it.***Not true at all. The inexperienced and uninformed primarily audition at dealers. The rest of us primarily audition in our homes.
***It was a Linn dealer who was presumably intent on making a sale, so the chances are pretty strong that the LP12 was well set up with a decent cartridge. As for questioning the LP quality, would you question the CD quality if he came to the opposite conclusion?***
You've got a lot to learn about dealer setups. Most are terrible. Analog is one of the most difficult components to setup and is setup improperly by most dealers.
[The inexperienced and uninformed primarily audition at dealers. The rest of us primarily audition in our homes.]inexperienced in the world of audio? i sure hope i am. too much of it is overpriced garbage hype pushed by arrogant stupid salesman. i would like to have more experiences with quality and value but alas, they have not really presented themselves.
[You've got a lot to learn about dealer setups. Most are terrible. Analog is one of the most difficult components to setup and is setup improperly by most dealers.]
you are welcome to email about who the dealer was in the event you would like to contact him about the holy setup of the linn TT. i'm quite sure in the 20 years he's been selling the LP12, he has learned along the way to set it up, but i'm sure you would like to find out for yourself. (btw, the dealer is the owner and only salesman in his establishment. he has but a single room for serious auditions and only takes appoinments) since you regard home audition so highly, i did audition the cd players mentioned in my system.
i fail to understand why you assume an improper setup of the TT system. it sure as hell sounded better than most analog systems i've heard.
why do you also presume i know nothing about the equipment. i simply ran through a quick story about an experience i had with a dealer and in that, a comparison of the sources i heard. it was by far the most educational experience i've had in the world of audio. everything was constant except for the source. does this only apply to that system and room? of course - but i would hope that is assumed.
good day,
chiggy
***why do you also presume i know nothing about the equipment.***One can't know very much about equipment without auditioning it in the home. A dealer audition of a couple of components effectively tells you nothing about how they'll sound in your home and one certainly cannot generalize about technologies based on a few dealer auditions. More importantly, however, you don't have a turntable, you don't have open reel, and you don't have SACD. Those are the three best sources available. Since you don't have any of them, why should I expect you to know anything about quality?
[One can't know very much about equipment without auditioning it in the home. A dealer audition of a couple of components effectively tells you nothing about how they'll sound in your home]perhaps a simple comparison of products? don't remember stating a thing about how stuff will sound in my home. i don't get it - do you purchase your equipment and/or demo it without a listen?
[and one certainly cannot generalize about technologies based on a few dealer auditions]
don't remember generalizing - where do you see this?
[More importantly, however, you don't have a turntable, you don't have open reel, and you don't have SACD. Those are the three best sources available. Since you don't have any of them, why should I expect you to know anything about quality? ]
where is my argument stating i know anything about quality? jeez - in the world i work in, this is called having "issues". also - imo, why on earth should i purchase dead and/or dying and/or stillborn formats w/o waiting to see what happens to listen to "quality"? open reel - and do what with this? listen to quality and oh yea, no music i like. sacd - sure sure...let's see where that goes - i have no idea and neither do you. LP - are you kidding me? this format continues to exist for collectors and DJ's. take this personally and realize your goals of deevolving into a fool. it's called prioritizing my money.
why do you assume i know nothing about quality? can i be allowed to presume you don't know what this is bc you dont listen to a CD12 and rockport sirius? have you ever been in a recording studio? can you play an instrument? do you grasp the underpinnings of the human auditory system? what gives? i don't make those presumptions or attack without reasonable warrant - why do you?
my original post here questioned your knowledge of what a sampling rate was. you responded with accuracy in playback. you disappeared without responding to my reply and came back in to attack a simple experience i had at a dealer. nothing more nothing less. you have presented nothing but comments on why i know nothing about your preferences in playback systems. would you happen to have any responses to my comments on your previous posts?
ie....what's up wit dat?
chiggy
***my original post here questioned your knowledge of what a sampling rate was***It didn't merit a response from me.
"i'm a straw man, yea baby, i'm a straw man"
jk. hope you can take a ribbing. if not, cie la vie.what gives? you're not even responding to any of my points.
humourous you are Rich H. i'll be sure to AVOID responding to your posts in the future.chiggy
Rich Wrote:"The inexperienced and uninformed primarily audition at dealers. The rest of us primarily audition in our homes."
True, but I previously said nothing to contradict this. What I said was that listening in a showroom has value, just as most of the anecdotal tails here do. Chiggy was relating his experience of a show-room audition. I don't believe he was demanding that his experience should be treated as gospel.
"You've got a lot to learn about dealer setups. Most are terrible. Analog is one of the most difficult components to setup and is setup improperly by most dealers."
Rather like the lawyer with no case who falls back on discrediting the witness, you are clutching at straws.
Listen, I don't really care. Just don't dump on people who don't deserve it, OK?
Daniel Espley
Hello Daniel -damn right!
good day,
chiggy
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