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After months of pondering, I finally purchased a NAD M51 as a hoped for improvement and companion to my existing OPPO 105d.
Let me first say what a great disk player is the 105d. There is no disk, from MP3 to SACD and DVDA, that this thing will not play. I was already convinced thet it's included Sabre32 DAC, sounds excellent in my system (http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/3423.html). But, after pouring through many reviews of the M51, and comments here in the Asylum, I thought the much vaunted DAC was sure to complement and enhance the OPPO's performance even further, in my endless pursuit of the absolute sound.
After the arrival of the M51 last Monday, I have spent many hours of evaluation, mostly in blind, one to one comparison. Using the old Stereophile Test CD2, pink noise track, it was easy to setup a constant output volume between player, DAC and preamp, by using the volume control of each component. So, with the 105d output connected to the DAC by HDMI and to my preamp by balanced analog,I could play a CD or SACD and easily switch between the output of the OPPO vs the NAD, maintaining a set volume level.
Here comes the disappointment! No matter what source I feed the combination, 44/16 to DSD, Mozart to Ellington, the listening experience remained the same. In other words, I have spent $2000, for no appreciable improvement. Another take away, for those who own the OPPO 105d, you already have a player/DAC combination, at least equal to the sound quality produced by the M51 used with a quality player. As always, others experiece may vary.
Interestingly, my experience streaming Classics Online from iPad to either 105d or M51 via HDMI, produced the same, no difference, results. Also, the DAC reads the iPad signal as 48 khtz regardless of the Classics Online designation (ie. 44.1/16 to 192/24), either direct or through the OPPO.
The NAD M51 will be going back next week.
Follow Ups:
I tried every which way, but my old trusted DAC was just as good as the new much more expensive DAC.
I was very disappointed
And I have to say it will be a long time before buy another.
I just spent many thousands on a few new interconnects. And that old DAC is still getting better. Along with one of my TT.
he other TT and phono box hit the 'wall' and is a mystery why, other than it is just not nearly as good. Where I thinkthe CD playback took a huge step to better...
One thng I look at the reviews of DACs, and Hell, they all still have the same stairstep image. In fact the Recent Bryston 3 has plenty of ringing on each step. Is THAT supposed to be 'better'?? I guess my now fifteen year old DAC is still just as good.
;-)
The technology of digital audio playback has become so convoluted, it would be more surprising if an arbitrary source/DAC combination worked well than worked poorly or didn't work.
No surprise- Loan Arranger.
the Oppo is not that great, IMO.
I'm afraid I heard the M51 and came to the same conclusion. However, I heard it cold and had assumed it was just not broken in or warmed up. The Parasound ZDac V2 easily outclassed it, when just as cold.The M51 had a hard treble and lacked low level detail and compressed dynamics.
BTW, I _LIKE_ the ZDac, especially for the price.
If you are looking for expensive, try the following instead:
Berkeley
Mytek
Schiit
Ayre Codex is also getting good buzz. Not heard it.Best,
Erik
Edits: 10/19/16 10/19/16
When I first received mine, I put it in the system between my Pioneer DV-47ai (transport) and Cary SLP-308 line stage, feeding a Parasound A23 and Ascend Sierra 2 monitors. In fixed gain mode, the M51 was more resolving and dynamic then the internal DACs and output stage of the Pioneer (paralleled BB 1738s, if I remember correctly) but I wasn't bowled over by the improvement.When I removed the line stage, and ran the M51 as a digital preamp with volume control straight into my amplifier, I got what I was looking for... Transparency, detail, and slam.
I think the M51 does its best when used in this context... And that won't suit everyone's needs.
I continue to be very impressed with mine!
edit: I also note that you were using the HDMI output of the Oppo to feed the M51. I also use the HDMI inputs on the M51 for video sources, but my observations here are based on two-channel PCM over s/pdif (coax and optical)
SF
Edits: 10/18/16
The Oppo vs removing the pre isnt a real comparison to me. Today's modern high out, low z sources with a passive line stage most often but not always don't need a pre. Maybe its the system at its best without the pre and its unneeded gain stage that is the ticket. Therefore he should also try just the Oppo which I believe has a VC as well.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Edits: 10/21/16
But it doesn't invalidate my observations regarding the M51.
I have a hard time believing that the DAC/output stage of the Oppo is superior to the M51, but I haven't heard them in a direct comparison.
SF
I hear you. My only thing is one in such a scenario really needs to try both.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Using my M51 as a digital preamp, I've encountered the best most transparent and enjoyable sound of any system I have ever owned. I think so much of what people expect from a DAC is that they make terrible recordings sound good. When fed a great signal, the NAD is among the best DACs on the market with a state of the art noise floor and very good time domain behavior. I use HQPlayer and Purevinyl in front of the M51 with great success. One of the most mind-blowing things I've ever played is a mono 1955 Billie Holiday Torching LP owned by my father. My wife exclaimed OMG I've never heard anything like that before! Not strident, not flat not bad. Warm, elegant and enormously space-filling. The problem usually isn't the DAC. It's the content, room and listener.
a very subjective affair and very long (19 pages and applied to headphones, not speakers) yet some without golden ears might wonder about what they can or can't detect sonically with various DACs. General rule of thumb though is if it sounds better (or worse or the same) to you, that's what matters.
Edits: 10/18/16
" No matter what source I feed the combination, 44/16 to DSD"
Not surprised that you didn't rate the M51's performance feeding it with DSD as it can't process this format. It does PCM only.
"the DAC reads the iPad signal as 48 khtz"
I have no knowledge of Apple products but I suspect that the DAC is displaying the "native" output frequency of the iPad. Does the i-pad downsample to its sound engine's highest rate? For comparison, in Windows when the sound engine is used, the maximum sample rate frequency is selectable and incoming data at less then this will be upsampled and incoming data higher than this will be downsampled. Maybe an expert on iPads could comment?
NAD M51 is long in the tooth. There are plenty of sub $500 DACs that better it.
While the latest crop of DACs IS very good, the M51 was in trouble even for it's time, IMHO. :)
This sucks for me because I really want to try the NAD HT processor, but based on what I've heard it's not a sound quality I like.
Best,
Erik
And what is the chance any of them will improve on the 105d? Any specific recommendations?
I own a 105D and I also own a TASCAM DA-3000 DSD recorder. The DA-3000 has BurrBrown PCM1795 DACs and it sounds better to me than the 105D. I bought the DA-3000 to copy my LPs to DSD, but it can play both PCM and DSD directly from a USB flash drive plugged into its front-panel USB port. It can also be used as a DAC, but it doesn't have a USB DAC input--only coax, AES/EBU and SDIF-3. Anyway, I think my DA-3000 has tighter, deeper bass than my 105D and it also sounds more accurate and transparent. In other words, when I copy an LP and play it back through the DA-3000 it sounds just like the LP but when I play it back through the Oppo BDP-105D it sounds different. It has looser bass and it just doesn't sound as good as the LP directly from the turntable or through the DA-3000.
Best regards,
John Elison
Here is my system in case you're interested:
.
.
My Oppo HA-1 DAC/Headphone Amp sounded a little lean or on the cool side compared to my other DACs including the PS Audio NuWave DSD, Mytek Stereo192-DSD, and the Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC. This was regardless of what format I fed it and I primarily listen to pretty standard stuff like PCM 16/44.1 from CDs or higher resolution PCM 24/96 downloads.
I'm wondering if the Oppo BD players sounds a little lean and/or on the cool side rather than more full-bodied, robust, and warmer. The only Oppo product that I owned was the HA-1.
The Oppo HA-1 before I sold it
My Oppo BDP-105D does not sound lean or cool at all. It is rather warm sounding and makes a lot of CDs sound better than usual. I got the feeling it might have been "voiced" to sound like a tube component. The problem I have is that it doesn't sound accurate when I play my digital recordings of vinyl. I was used to them sounding just like the turntable, but they just don't sound right on the BDP-105D. I much prefer playing my vinyl recordings in my TASCAM DA-3000, which is very accurate and transparent. The DA-3000 also has somewhat tighter, deeper bass.
Best regards,
John Elison
Thanks John for describing the sound of your BDP-105D. I was curious to know if it sounded anything like the HA-1 that owned and apparently it doesn't, which is good if I ever get one of their blu-ray disc players.
Oppo is coming out with a new Blu-Ray disc player in late 2016. I guess it must be coming real late in 2016. ;-)
The DA-3000 has BurrBrown PCM1795 DACs and it sounds better to me than the 105D.
I suspect what you are really hearing is differences in the unit's analog output stage. The Tascam uses NE5532 op amps vs. the Oppo's LM4562s.
Ironically, the former is a 1979 design while the latter is from 2006. :)
People in 'digital' forums tend to place too much weight on the DAC chip itself for it's contribution to the overall sound of a DAC. There are several outstanding modern DAC chips to choose from yet the same chip implemented by different designers can result in vastly different sounding DACs. Some outstanding, some crap. As you mentioned, the analog output stage has a huge influence on the overall sound, arguably more so than the DAC chip itself.
And one inmate's suggestion of simply removing coupling caps to improve sound is a dangerous one. This is the same guy who blew up his Tektronix oscilloscope by probing around where he didn't belong. If it were that stupid simple the designer would have removed the coupling caps and their associated cost to begin with. Coupling caps are there for a reason.
You are expert in fabrication. Troll.
Now Abe, you know very well that's not what he meant.
I'm afraid all this talk of R2R vs. DSD dac chips and methodology has gotten me to the edge of pulling the trigger on the Yggdrasil. What tipped me today was finding this review by Craig Uthus of Eddie Current, formally of Moth Audio.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
to attribute SQ exclusively to opamps. It depends on how they are powered, bypassed and coupled, as well as how many in the audio chain.
The Oppo has coupling capacitors and this was a reason why I wouldn't buy one.
Remove the coupling caps in most ouptput stages and SQ changes very significantly for the better.
> The Oppo has coupling capacitors and this was a reason why I wouldn't buy one.
Please show me the schematic for any DAC that DOESN'T have a coupling capacitor in the output stage or simply explain how one passes AC while blocking DC without a coupling capacitor.
Come to think of it, how does a 2A3 direct coupled power amp with a direct (series) feed OPT prevent DC from getting to the speakers?
My quick and dirty answer to your question would be a DC blocking cap after the voltage amplifier, as opposed to a coupling cap between the dac chip and the V amp. Seems like a gyp though. Not like you asked me. :)
I just got a Schiit Yggy that's billed as direct coupled. Maybe I'll ask them about it when I send them an email about what I like and don't like about their dac.
Keep slinging that solder Palustris!
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Sorry! That question wasn't aimed at you...
exclusively to dac chip and opamps, the same caveats apply.
...attribute SQ exclusively to opamps.
Who did that?
It depends on how they are powered, bypassed and coupled, as well as how many in the audio chain.
What the rest of us call the " analog output stage ." :)
Agree about coupling capacitors.
Still, a linear amplifying device is always a good thing.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Linear Stage - agree. It is also true that power supplies influence sonics a lot.
Thanks John for your post. Are you able to blind test the OPPO against the Tascam at equalized volume?
No, I did not conduct a blind test or even an A/B test. The difference is pretty obvious, though.
While auditioning the M51 I found a good deal on a preowned PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC mk2. Took a chance. That improved the on the M51 and is my current DAC. Never heard the new Directstream so cannot make a comment if that's even better
FYI - I seem to recall that the NAD M51 utilizes pulse width modulation D/A technology. Sabre D/A chips are multibit sigma-delta.
_
Ken Newton
I have streamed classicsonline from a Macbook pro to a Gustard 12 with sampling readout display and it always reads out the correct sampling frequency up to 192. You have something set incorrectly on the IPAD
Alan
I am using HDMI out to the front of the OPPO via the Apple lightening adapter. Not sure if there is any output setting available on the iPad. Next month I plan to change over to a Windows laptop and hopefully things will improve. The iPad can be rather spotty, especially if you try any other app activity while listening.
I've heard the M51 at a friends house quite often and I always felt impressed. I have a BDP-83 that I really enjoy; would like to own a 105D.
Very interesting findings and in line with my experiences. Differences in digital sources are usually minor compared to loudspeakers and listening room. This is easily demonstrated by shifting the position of the speakers or listener. If you want a digital component that may really improve your system, look into Dirac electronic room correction from MiniDSP.
Have you had any direct experience with the MiniDSP in your system? I did some research and it looks very promising. I didn't see any postings in the Asylum, however.
Electronic room correction is seldom discussed on AA because most of the products available have been developed for the home theater market and many audiophiles harbor deep prejudices against such equipment. This appears to be slowly changing with the introduction of components like the miniDSP processors. My experience with digital room equalization extends back for nearly a decade and the most recent iterations (Dirac, Audyssey MultiEQ XT32, Anthem Room Correctio and Trinnov) are very, very good when properly implemented. They supplement, not replace, good room layout and acoustic treatment.
Thanks! for sharing- Loan Arranger.
There you go. Fixed that for you!
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Everything makes a difference. I mod Oppos so take what I say with a grain of whatever...he he. The stock Oppo is good....nothing special. When I do my all out mod it is way better and a really good source(the same could be said about the Modwright mod and other mods). However, I now modify a Gustard DAC that when plugged into the coax of the modded Oppo sounds significantly better. The Gustard DAC uses two ESS DACs in parallel but the difference in sound is because of many things. Here is a link to some comments by one of my customers who has the all out modded Oppo and then got the all out modded Gustard and now uses them both together: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/evs-modded-gustard-x20-dac
By the way Oppo has a new DAC coming out it Dec. that will have the new ESS 9038 DAC chip, streaming, usb inputs for hard drive, apps for I-phone and android use and even an analog input. $799. They are claiming that stock it beats the 105, etc. No doubt with mods it will be killer.
I was only partially joking. Been in this hobby long enough to agree with your assertion because I have heard similar interventions produce great improvement, over and over again. :^)
That said, Sabre DACs don't 'work' with my hearing. More's the pity, as I'm left to choose between vintage monolithic multibit or bespoke, very expensive versions of today. Maybe the 9038 Oppo implementation will finally be acceptable but I'm not holding my breath.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
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