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In Reply to: RE: Do you believe in giant killers? posted by eduardoo on August 05, 2016 at 21:41:40
I read about "giant killers" from time to time. The first question is what giant are they supposed to have killed? The second is what experience does the proponent of the killer have of the giant?In regard to the first question I have rarely, if ever, seen the identity of the giant revealed in such comparisons. In regard to the second, has the person giving the "killer" title got real knowledge of the giant or are they more likely to have very limited experience e.g. they heard one for a few minutes at a show or dealers, given the price of admission for most of the real "giants"?
In fact what "giant killers" usually turn out to be are components that are superior to what could be thought of as the next performance level up of their type. And good for the money thay can be indeed.
So, as far as DACs are concerned, you may well find $1000 DACs that outperform $1500 ones or $3000 DACs that outpefrom $5000 ones. But that $1000 or $3000 DAC won't be better than one of the genuine (and very costly) giants of performance like MSB, EMM or dCS. Of course over time technology marches on and a cheaper DAC than the existing "giant" will emerge. However that technology will also have marched on for the manufacturer of the "giant" too and they may well have produced an even better DAC and thus they remain as "giants".Aspirational if not affordable.
Edits: 08/06/16Follow Ups:
PAR-
you raise an interesting query;
here is my take from listening experience. A few years ago, I was in an Audio Shop that had excellent sound rooms for auditioning the gear.
In a side-by-side comparison, a Rogue Audio integrated amp sounded better than an ARC integrated amp, at half-of the cost.
I'm late to this party but I have first hand experience with the ARC VSi-60 integrated and the Rogue Cronus Magnum.Both were set up side-by-side in my system and as much as I wanted to love the ARC, the Rogue was better sounding.
Why did I want to love the ARC? It has a more flexible remote control for input selection, volume, mute, a more flexible and nicer front panel layout with volume level indicator LEDs, mute button, and cleaner looking overall. Precise volume level is easier to set with the ARC remote. The ARC VSi-60 is housed in a nice compact chassis with a relatively small footprint.
The Rogue is a bit plain Jane almost ugly. But in the end I sold the ARC and kept the Rogue. The Rogue sounds better at a fraction of the price.
I'm not sure that the newer nearly megabuck ARC integrated amps are that much better. It's probably just me but I can't seem to warm up to the ARC sound after owning a couple of their linestages, a couple ARC power amps, and the VSi-60 integrated. And 'warm up' is the key phrase here. ;-) None of them had the slightest bit of 'warmth' that I associate with the tube gear that I enjoy.
Edits: 08/09/16
Well your story kind of supports my hypothesis. In this case a $3000 or $2000 integrated amp beat a $5000 or $6000, or whatever price, one. Now as I asked, what is the giant? In amps an unarguable giant would have been the ARC Ref series pre-power combination of the time. If the integrated Rogue was better than that then we have a genuine giant killer. The Rogue may well have been better than the next level up as represented by the ARC integrated. So, if it didn't kill a giant maybe it killed a taller guy :-).
You also support my point about experience. Just a comparatively short exposure in a store is not the same as spending many hours/days/weeks/months with the "giant". How many times have I thought a given product was superior upon a short exposure to it only to reverse my decison after an extended time of living with it? Immediately attractive sonic differences can ultimately reveal themselves as being nothing more than that.
BTW, I think Rogue Audio make a great product.
Right On! PAR
I listened to that room over 3 months while I was on assignment for work.
The Listening Room- Baltimore MD for reference. System was ARC/Rogue Audio, Maggie and Sonus Faber speakers, Straight Wire (lower tier).
A $2-3K integrated amp killed off the $6K ARC integrated with ease.
Certainly, a David-and-Goliath moment!
I also agree that Rogue is consistently able to kill "taller guys" . Too bad they don't do digital.
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