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In Reply to: RE: I'm convinced posted by E-Stat on April 13, 2016 at 10:27:04
..anyone producing audiophile music, since the early 1990s. Noise-shaping since then too...
Follow Ups:
that the recording industry standard is 24 bits - unattainable in the Redbook format.
If CD quality is good enough for you, cool. MP3 quality is good enough for the masses...
Just recently did a comparison between 320 Mp3 and a CD recently..the Mp3 was supplied as a free download while the shipped.
The CD is was clearly superior, and it was not even close. Mixing them in the same folder and shuffling the tracks I was able to pick out the CD rip (FLAC) and the mp3 10 out of 10 times.
Good enough? What a hoot. But it seems the OP prefers absolutes and a lot of mental masturbation over listening to tunez.
Good enough? What a hoot.
digital resolution has always been driven by computer storage technology at the time. When iTunes hit the streets in 2001, ipods were limited to 5 GB of storage and the first minis, 1 GB.
You could store only six 24/96 FLAC albums on the former and but one on the latter. Who would do that? Today, however, I can fit my entire digital library one a single 256 GB flash drive.
I'm delighted we are no longer saddled with such sonic compromises. Unfortunately, the music industry hasn't caught up with technology.
Then bandwidth becomes the big player. A lot of the compression methods were created when there was mostly dial up users. That and HD capacity was a lot smaller. Bandwidth is money. It's why cell phone sampling rates are still so low.
ET
Then bandwidth becomes the big player.
Only if you assume streaming playback over cellular networks and that's not the question discussed here. I regularly download 24/96 albums in a couple of minutes to my computer. That versus days even for Amazon Prime to deliver CDs. Local brick and mortar stores rarely, if ever have the content. In fact, I have two used ones on the way now from them. Why? They are unavailable in a high rez downloadable PCM format.
It's why cell phone sampling rates are still so low.
I stream 24/96 content from my music server using the iPeng app to both iPhone6 and iPad Air2 (downsampled to 24/48 for their internal DACs) via WiFi. They are used as players in my garage system and for listening via IEMs at night in the bedroom.
Yes, but at the time the iPod was introduced, portability was seen as a convenience, and serious listeners would always consider the physical media the main source.
Then Apple in their market wizardry convinced millions that their 128 AAC excrement was "normal" quality.
As you note, storage concerns are quaint today, with terabytes available for peanuts.
There is literally no reason for commercially available lossy files to to exist.
What do you mean when you say the music industry has not caught up?
What do you mean when you say the music industry has not caught up?
Continued lack of wide support for superior high resolution formats. The CD represents Jurassic era digital. The major labels should replace CDs with master resolution quality downloads. Ironically, the most expensive part of the CD is the total cost of the media itself: raw cost of manufacturing disk along with shipping, inventory carrying, dead stock, etc.
Apple, Google and Amazon get it with their digital services.
Ok, I am really confused now.
First, the labels ARE selling master quality downloads, through Pono, HDTracks, Qobuz, ProStudioMasters, etc. Are you uninformed about this?
They are selling all they are going to sell because there really is a tiny market for it.
Secondly, what on earth is Google Music, Apple, and Amazon doing "right" aside from polluting the ecosystem with an ocean of lossy slop?
...but how many of these downloads are beyond-CD resolution ? Many are not.Labels would have to re-master their titles -and in today's world of cost-cutting, they're not gonna do it.
Edits: 04/13/16
Incorrect. Virtually every classic rock and pop catalog is available in higher than CD resolution.I can think of only a handful of exceptions..The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, and The Bee Gees are really all I can come up with.
Edit: you can add u2, except for one album, Achtung Baby!
Edits: 04/13/16
BS!
Virtually every classic rock and pop catalog is available in higher than CD resolution.
Are you really under that delusion? Such a ludicrous claim can be readily debunked.
Yeah, you really are drinking the industry Kool-Aid!
I just set the Audio Devices in Audio Midi Setup to 88200.0 Hz, 24 bit and send it off to my USB DAC.
I use 176400 because it is an even multiple of 44.1 Sounds good
Alan
.
it's good enough for me!
I wonder about the Pono player and Neil's ears? With drug use, loud concerts and age related hearing loss he'd be better searching for a heart of gold ;> )
I know a lot of audiophiles and not one has Pono. Is it still alive?
Alan
I believe it is. Neil has pulled all his stuff off the streaming services except Tidal Premium hoping people will buy downloads.
Absolute and utter nonsense. Please provide back up for your claim.
Buyer beware:
..and again:
to provide factual data to this guy.
Counting to thirteen is a challenge in itself.
Let's take some lightweight "pop" performers like Madonna, The Police, Taylor Swift and Rihanna.
At the expense of confusing the issue with facts, you won't find much at all in terms of downloads in any of the sites you referenced.
If I took another five minutes, I could list perhaps another couple dozen or so that contradict your fabulously optimistic position. :)
Best of luck to you!
Madonna's first 5 albums are available in 24/192. SNAP. OOOPS.
https://www.hdtracks.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=madonnaI happen to know that both taylor swift and rhianna records at 44.1/24. I promise you nothing will be gained over the CD.
Too bad for you if you don't have the Police SACD rips.
Your credibility is just about zero now on these matters.
Edits: 04/13/16 04/13/16
I happen to know that both taylor swift and rhianna records at 44.1/24.
The whole session was in 24/48
I really agreed with this sentiment of Justin's:
"The recording industry is in crisis, and there are many reasons for that, but one of the contributing factors is technical, and the technical side of the industry needs to take responsibility for the problems we are having. "
Amen.
but Madonna's early catalog was analog, after that it was all 44.1/16 and 44.1/24 PCM
We run the audio at 96k
You can link all you want. What you don't know is those TS final mixdowns and masters are 44.1.
Why are you linking to an article about Madonna's live show? No bearing at all what so ever on studio production.
Yet another 'phile who suffers from expert syndrome. You think you are an expert on everything...I do this for a living.
What you don't know is those TS final mixdowns and masters are 44.1.
That being the case only negates your previously stated assertion:
"Virtually every classic rock and pop catalog is available in higher than CD resolution."
Good job contradicting yourself!
Why are you linking to an article about Madonna's live show?
Perhaps you are unaware of music videos available on Blu Ray.
Look, you are way out of your league here.You original assertion that there is very little higher than CD resolution popular music available for sale is absolutely wrong but you cling to it, and your pride has force you to off on tangents.
Sure, you can pick a handful of artists..The Police, Robin Trower, The Bee Gees, etc where there is no HiRez.
But there is an enormous amount..CSNY, The Stones, Springsteen, Beach Boys, America, Black Sabbath, Eages, Coltrane, Miles Davis, Dylan, Judy Collins, Doors, Led Zep, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden, The ENTIRE BLUE NOTE CATALOG, Ramones, MC5, Paul McCartney, John Lennon, George Harrison, Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Neil Young, Elvis Presley, Allman Brothers, Santana, Janis Joplin, Blood, Sweat, Tears, James Taylor, R.E.M, Velvet Underground, The ENTIRE GRATEFUL DEAD studio output, the Cars, Simon & Garfunkel, Paul Simon, Lou Reed, Mahavishnu, Love, etc etc etc etc.
The freaking WHO...Frank FREAKING Sinatra...The Kinks...your premise is ridiculous.
NOT to mention most of the Decca, EMI, RCA Living Stereo etc classical recordings.
So you are uninformed and spreading BS.
Edits: 04/14/16
at least don't make that up either. Let's review what I actually posted :
Continued lack of wide support for superior high resolution formats [by the music industry]
There's not "pop" qualification to be found.
You original assertion that there is very little higher than CD resolution popular music available for sale is absolutely wrong
I'll repeat: if you find that one percent of the entire music catalog as "wide support", then we might agree.
Sure, you can pick a handful of artists..The Police, Robin Trower, The Bee Gees, etc where there is no HiRez.
I'm delighted you have reversed your earlier (ludicrous) supposition to the contrary.
your premise is ridiculous.
Only to those who are challenged by math.
So you are uninformed and spreading BS.
Unlike what you've posted, there isn't a single misstatement to be found.
You continue to illustrate the dysfunction and lack of awareness in the music industry. Did you note that statement was also NOT limited to a single genre as well?
Talking Heads, Ryan Adams, Glen Campbell, Patti Smith, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Joe Satriani, Don Henley, Thelonius Monk, Micheal Jackson, The Black Keys, Canned Heat, ELP, Jethro Tull, New York Dolls, Soundgarden, Otis Redding, Temptations, George Benson, Dean Martin, Pink Floyd, Nick Drake, Bob Marley, Leonard Cohen, Graham Nash, David Crosby, Bill Evans, Duke Ellington...............
One thing for sure is true..as they say..you can't fight audiophile hubris
with facts.
for continuing to illustrate your lack of understanding as to the totality of the music catalog.edit: BTW, I truly thank you for pointing out the Pono store. While there's little of interest to me available in high rez, they have a far wider collection of downloadable Redbook where you can purchase song by song. Since the albums are about twice the cost of what you find at Amazon, I'll still buy the CD and rip it.
Edits: 04/14/16
Then run it through HQPlayer and...
HIGH REZ!!!!
"Little of interest" to you? What a joke.I am cueing up the new CSNY Deja Vu in 24/192, the 24/192 Rush, Yes, Joni Mitchell, Miles Davis, and Elvis Costello remasters today..
and the sublime 24/96 and 24/192 Van Morrison remasters (the entire catalog!).... Those are remarkable!
..while you whine and complain and spread misinformation.
Edits: 04/14/16 04/14/16
that even you now acknowledge - I have not made a single misstatement.
My listening tastes are not stuck with past reissues.
Hooverphonic, Seal, Hozier, Leon Bridges, Alt-J, Mayer Hawthorne, M83, I could go on for pages..but you will cling to your alternate reality.
your posts to your superiors at Universal?
How do you think they would find your outright lies and utter lack of understanding as to the big picture of the music industry today - across ALL the genres?
Do you think your perspective places a positive image of the music industry and its understanding of what is actually available?
Tell you what - as one of their consumers, I'll do that for you! :)
Oh, trust me I did..and we had a heck of a laugh at your expense!
In between giggles we went through all the non reissue, non rock and non pop releases available on Pono, Qobuz, ProStudioMasters,Highresaudio, Superhirez, and HDT could not believe the numbers.
We don't want uninformed customers who think they know better and who spread utter nonsense on the internet. But again, typical audiophool..you are an expert on every subject known to man.
Enough, back to my high rez playlist..Rokia Traore, Jaques Brel, Charles Aznavour, and Anoushka Shankar.
Toodles.
utter ignorance and lying doesn't exist at all levels at Universal.
We'll see...
who spread utter nonsense on the internet.
You keep saying that and have yet to demonstrate that anything that I've said is a misstatement of fact.
Lies. Disillusionment. Lack of perspective.
That's a great testimony to your (lack of) profession. :)
So, let us know when you get past demonstrating the availability of more than 430,000 high resolution tracks. Good luck!
More horseshit..
Ben Harper, Father John Misty, Lord Huron, Lumineers, Punch Bros, Lizz Wright, Coldplay, Daft Punk, Ray Lamontagne, Weezer, Andrew Bird, Sufjan Stevens, Bombino, Gwen Stefani, Tori Amos, Alanis Morrisette, Wilco, Anoushka Shankar,Ryan Adams, Jake Bugg, Norah Jones....
Keep digging..you are sounding more ridiculous with every post.
you continue to find only spotty coverage. Is anyone really surprised? So, what actually is available in true high rez (> 44.1)?
Coldplay - 11 albums
Pono-1
HDTracks-2
Qobuz-1
ProStudioMasters-0
2 <> 11 FAIL!
Weezer - 10 albums
Pono-2
Qobuz-2
HDTracks-2
ProStudioMasters-1
2 <> 10 FAIL!
Bombino - 5 albums
Pono-2
HDTracks-1
Qobuz-0
ProStudioMasters-0
2 <> 5 FAIL!
It is trivial to find any number of other failures to deliver an artist's catalog. How about?
Paramore - 12 albums including soundtracks
Pono-1
HDTracks-1
Qobuz-3
ProStudioMasters-0
3 <> 12 FAIL!
Katy Perry - 4 albums
Pono-0
HDTtracks-0
Qobuz-1
ProStudioMasters-0
1 <> 4 FAIL!
Blue Foundation - 6 albums
Pono-0
HDTracks-0
Qobuz-0
ProStudioMasters-0
Give the studios a little time. Rome wasn't built in a day, and iTunes wasn't populated overnight. :)
--------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
especially in light of the fact that MP3s are the preferred format. I enjoy what little I can find.
You'd think someone who actually works for a company like Universal might have a more accurate perspective. Something like, "yeah, I know but you have to appreciate the economics and the fact that the vast majority of the public just doesn't care".
That would have been an entirely reasonable response.
Instead, he continues to foment overt lies (he's even contradicted himself!) and acts like a juvenile having absolutely no understanding of the size of the music catalog. And complains that I live in an "audiophile bubble". I'll happily take that moniker when it means "objective perspective". :)
For me why I don't buy downloads is most are just upsampled 16/44 files. I can stream from tidal and upsample on my own and not pay ridiculous prices for downloads
Alan
I hear what you're saying and am aware of isolated cases where the "high resolution" claim has been fudged for a particular recording. Or, in the case of Qobuz, a "watermark" has been added. Bad form indeed.
Having said that, I have quite a few 96/24 recordings that are clearly superior to their Redbook counterparts at the top end. I have perhaps half a dozen examples of music in LP, Redbook and 96/24.
When not "fudged", I find that (true) 96/24 offers the best of what the other two formats offer.
On this we can agree!! Listen to Graham Nash's lovely new album in 24/96.
I still like 24/192 and DSD128 if it can be done. But I don't fret about it.
On this we can agree!!
There you go! :)
I will always select a (true) high resolution download when such is available.
....As will I. Bandcamp also offers many exclusive 24 bit versions of albums. I have hundreds from there.
Don't know about you, but in my digital library there is content across nearly a hundred different genres. You've brushed the surface of a couple.
The iTunes library itself has over forty-three million songs in it.
Good luck attempting to keep up!
Most at MP3 or 16/44
Alan
The context is what percent of the total music library available today - across all genres - is available in a true high resolution format.
Empirically, the data suggests that the most optimistic answer is about 0.5%.
Madonna's first 5 albums are available in 24/192. SNAP. OOOPS.
Oops indeed. You can't even count! Yes, four of the thirteen are available. I have three of those.
I happen to know that both taylor swift and rhianna records at 44.1/24. I promise you nothing will be gained over the CD.
First of all, what idiot records at 44/24? Fail. Again.
Too bad for you if you don't have the Police SACD rips.
Kindly point to where those can be (legally) downloaded. Best of luck to you!
Your credibility is just about zero now on these matters.
Those must be good drugs you're on! I'm now understanding quite well why the music industry is dysfunctional. :)
Obviously , you still don't understand the difference between 1 and 100. Token samplings are not what ensures success. The data proves that.
I was off by one album but you can't even complete a simple search.Hate to pop another bubble, but Madonna's early catalog was analog, after that it was all 44.1/16 and 44.1/24 PCM.
Who records in 44.1? How about 90% of all artist who make synthetic pop, like Rhianna, and Pharrel Williams. I use the term "synthetic" not as derogatory term concerning the music, but meaning that the only live instrument is the vocal most of the time.
Takes quite a set of stones to think you know better than the artists.
Can they come to your job and tell you how to do it?
Edits: 04/13/16
I was off by one album but you can't even complete a simple search.
Do you understand the difference between 4 and 13? Is that too difficult for a music mogul to comprehend?
How about 90% of all artist who make synthetic pop, like Rhianna, and Pharrel Williams.
Sorry, I don't begin to believe the ramblings of such a clueless poster. Now it's your turn to provide substantiation. Which will never occur.
Yeah, no answer to The Police thing. No surprise there. You have no understanding of legal implications, do you?
Or dozens of other artists if I bothered to take a few more minutes. 1 <> 100.
Takes quite a set of stones to think you know better than the artists.
Do you really think that the artists define the recording resolution? Are you that utterly clueless? Back your claim with any notion of fact if you expect anyone to believe you.
Clearly, all you have is empty speculation and poor ability to count numbers even on one hand. It didn't even require you to use your toes if Madonna's catalog were really available as you originally opined.
So much for anything in the way of factual data.
In the 25 years I was in the studio very few artists ever had a clue what we were doing technically
Alan
LOL. Enjoy that Audiophile bubble. Nobody was better at it than your mentor.
Edits: 04/13/16 04/13/16
attempt to baffle with bull$hit, right? :)
Do you expect anyone to actually believe your speculations?
Nobody was better at it than your mentor.
To which one do you refer? Dr. Cooledge, as member of the board of the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, was involved with getting the Telarc recording contract for many a fine result.
I participated in one of their wonderful recordings where I learned what real recording engineers do. At least those with integrity.
...but what's their native resolution ?!!
"...but what's their native resolution ?!!"
I don't understand your question.
First, the labels ARE selling master quality downloads, through Pono, HDTracks, Qobuz, ProStudioMasters, etc. Are you uninformed about this?I have purchased many through those channels. If you consider covering perhaps 1% of the musical catalog "wide support", then we agree.
My day job is supply chain management. Providing the ability to download everything is they key. It's the infrastructure they use which could be instantly converted to any high resolution format. Using people to pick, pack and ship physical media that must be inventoried is a costly and failed model. All one has to do is view the latest RIAA statistics .
edit: Unfortunately, for the vast majority of music I purchase, I must purchase and rip CDs - used where possible since I never use the CD once I've ripped the content.
Edits: 04/13/16
The latest stastistics I saw now show streaming as the #1 money maker. Cds were at the bottom of the list
Alan
that the writing is on the wall for physical media in the music industry. It's simply too costly and inflexible from a supply chain POV vs downloads.
In time, that will be the case with video as well, but since the bandwidth requirements are so much higher, that will take more time. Ripping a Blu Ray results in 25-40 GB files. :)
Physical media is by far the #1 form of consumption in Japan and a few other countries. Japan is the second larges market on the planet the US of course being #1. I travel to Japan twice yearly and the CD shops are enormous and packed with young people.Streaming has failed there. Spotify just aborted plans to expand in Japan. I know this for a fact as one of my long time friends works there.
Edits: 04/18/16
What does your friend in Japan have to say about it?
My friend does not live in Japan. They work for Spotify in London. The Japanese market has been a dismal failure. They could not get consumers to sign up for accounts. They tried everything.
Wrap your head around this. Tower Records, which famously went bust here in the US, has 85 stores in Japan. Several of which I visited last year..multi floor monoliths.
On top of that, licensing for streaming is much more difficult. See this article.
Are the RIAA statistics that I previously quoted here limited to the US?
yes, and your point?
show us the data for Japan.
Sorry, you've already demonstrated how grossly inaccurate your shoot-from-the-hip *facts* are.
Don't ask me then..google is your friend.
You don't have the remotest clue as to the answer!
No surprise there. :)
You are full of shit. I know the EXACT numbers.
Get off your ass and do the research.
You claim my information is bogus, but want me to supply numbers.
You can't have it both ways chucky.
Why am I not surprised, Pearson was an impetuous, petty man. You learned from the best.
I know the EXACT numbersToo funny. Apparently providing a link is beyond your intellectual capability.
Understood.
You can't have it both ways chucky.
You have repeatedly demonstrated that you simply make up $hit to fit your mood.
Pearson was an impetuous, petty man
Yeah, that supports you continued lack of substantiation to anything you'd claimed. :)
edit: I'll do your work and put the world market into perspective :
"The biggest culprits for the fall were an 8.1% decline in revenues from physical format sales...
Another first for the industry in 2014 was that digital and physical music consumption contributed the same proportion of total revenues for the first time... "
The physical media ship is sinking...
Edits: 04/19/16
Ohhh kay..let's try this again.
You cannot allocate resources to a market, where there is no market.
Every single "high resolution" format has failed disasterously in the mainstream market. Like, were are talking the Titanic. SACD, DVD-A, you name it.
Even going back 30 years, boutique labels were the ones who were producing "master quality" LPs and CDs that sold a few thousand if it was a blockbuster..to the SAME 1% you refer to.
It is amazing how many times day I have to pop an audiophile bubble. My pin is getting dull.
Every single "high resolution" format has failed disasterously in the mainstream market.
And why do you think that was? The CD succeeded because EVERY piece of music was released on it. Let me say that agsin since you don't seem to appreciate the difference between 1 and 100.
DVD-A and SACD releases were spotty and token like the hi rez downloads today. Most of what you want is simply unavailable . It required special gear for playback. Today, even $99 DACs and smartphones support 24/88 or 24/96 ocntent. Duh.
It is amazing how many times day I have to pop an audiophile bubble.
And are utterly clueless as to economic failure of continuing to milk physical media. Switching over to downloads would reduce cost substantially and there is effectively no additional cost in providing the original master vs. some downsampled compromise as we find today.
If you're part of the music industry, it is easy to understand the failure the RIAA reports.
You can split hairs, rationalize, and be as idealistic as you want to be it won't change the facts.99% of the music buying public do not care, or know the difference.
No business can sustain itself catering to a small group... the 1%.
Edits: 04/13/16 04/13/16
99% of the music buying public do not care, or know the difference.
Why then do the geniuses in the music industry still produce and distribute CDs if MP3 downloads are "good enough"?
They piss away resources that could be better leveraged. It's apparent they simply don't give a $hit - and whine about the state of the market.
Again cd sales (in the US) are behind streaming and downloads
Alan
when consumers observe the obvious - and those actually in the industry demonstrate (vociferously) they are utterly clueless.
Go figure.
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