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Hi
Does anyone have a list of DAC's which convert PCM to DSD?
I can think of the following:
PS Audio Direct Stream
dCS
That's about it. I believe there may be some at all price points but do not know them.
I looked at the Cary 200ts but while it plays most formats out there, I don't think it converts PCM to DSD.
Thanks
Follow Ups:
From www.dsd.sonore.us , these convert PCM to DSD:
- Antelope Rubicon Preamp/DAC
- Antelope Zodiac Platinum
- APL DSD-M
- Astell & Kern AK500N Network Player
- EMM Labs DAC2X
- EMM Labs XDS1 V2 SACD Player/DAC
- Lumin A1 Network Player/DAC
- Lumin D1 Network Player/DAC
- Sony HAP-Z1ES Digital Music Player/DAC
- Teac UD-503 DSD Headphone Amp/DAC
Hi,
Any DAC or CD Player that uses a Delta Sigma DAC Chip internally converts PCM to single bit (in effect DSD) at a rate of usually something like DSD 128, sometimes even DSD256.
So the list includes anything with Wolfson Micro (yes, that includes certain models of iPhones and iPods), Cirrus Logic (more recent iPhones all use these), Asahi Kasei Micro, Nippon Precision Circuits and recent Analogue Devices Chips. Even many recent TI DAC's are pure Delta Sigma, as are the later Philips/NXP.
Given that Delta Sigma DAC's took over in the early 90's from Multibit it will probably be easier to make a list of DAC's that do not convert PCM to DSD but render it as PCM, than the other way around.
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
EMM Labs XDS1v2 and magnificently so...
I hope that someone will correct me if I'm wrong about this (I sometimes hate trying to decipher product manuals), but I believe that the $1000 Tascam unit uses it's own sample rate converter to up-sample incoming digital signals to 192khz PCM or 5.6Mhz DSD...
Edits: 03/16/16 03/17/16
The TASCAM DA-3000 is a digital recorder. It records in PCM or DSD but it doesn't make sense to say that it up-samples analog to 192khz PCM or 5.6Mhz DSD. Analog is analog; digital is digital. You don't up-sample analog. It only makes sense to talk about up-sampling if you're sending the recorder a digital signal and the recorder up-samples the digital signal to a higher sampling rate.
Best regards,
John Elison
Hi
sorry for jumping in ... are you sure that the unit cannot upsample to DSD a cd digital signal sent to its spdif input ?
because i get this idea reading something in web
Thanks a lot
Kind regards,
bg
I don't know. I've never tried recording a digital signal. I use my DA-3000 for recording vinyl LPs. I'll bet you can download the manual and find out if it can upsample 16/44 to DSD!
Hi ! Very nice unit indeed.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
Correction noted.
PS Audio just released a new DAC Called Directstream Junior.
It is $4K, a little bit more affordable than the higher end original Directstream.
It also converts to DSD.
I watched a video interview with the guy who designed it, it is really amazing technology. Very good to see this option as well.
Is the video interview online? Do you have a URL?
Thanks,
John Elison
Hi John, here is the interview
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mRg-Rrd2blY
there's an interview with McGowan here .
.
That was from two years ago.
I thought you were referring to a video about the above referenced Jr. model which was recently introduced - and the topic of the video to which I linked.
I trust you realize Ted has been an inmate here since the beginning. I remember his rack 'o jukeboxes prior to the world of server based music. :)
ok, thanks for the link you supplied.
seems very interesting technology. I would swear Aliens designed it, but Ted seems to be the guy :) or at least that's the cover story :)
/
The modulators that perform the conversion require significant computing resources to do it well. You would be much better served by doing PCM--> DSD in your computer first, then sending to a DSD dac. As oldmkvi posts, HQPlayer does this and may well have the best DSD modulators money can buy.
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
PaulN
Thanks for correcting my false impression of this. I thought upsampling within the DAC would be less fidgety but your points make sense. However, I am streaming my library through an Auralic Aries and I guess upsampling via software is not an option unless Auralic incorporates it into their streamer via a firmware update.
Actually none of the stand alone dCS DACs* will convert PCM to DSD.The conversion occurs either in the transport or via a separate upsampler. Earlier dCS DACs will also only accept the DSD in encrypted form so non-dCS sources will not work with them. Later DACs accept unencrypted DSD in DoP format.
The all-in-one-box players e.g Puccini and both versions of the the new Rossini do offer PCM/DSD upsampling.
* I am not counting the Rossini version without he CD mechanism as a stand alone DAC as it is also a network streamer.
Edits: 03/15/16
The New Mytek Dacs ( Manhattan, Brooklyn ) may convert PCM to DSD.
Actually, the Manhattan does, Brooklyn, not sure.
The Software works great, IMO!
The Software is cheap, the Manhattan is $5000.
I use Mytek192/DSD and Lampizator DSD Euforia Dacs, w/HQ,mostly.
It would cost a lot to upgrade from what I have already.
DSD refers to 1 bit PCM at an oversampled rate, typically generated by a sigma delta modulator. Most DACs that use a sigma delta modulators do so in a chip and the output of their modulators has more than one bit, e.g. in the case of the SABRE chip 6 bits (8 channel mode) or 8 bits (2 channel mode). SABRE chip DACs (and others using similar chips) are not DSD DACs, because they use more than one bit.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Edits: 03/29/16
Many DSD DAC manufacturers, including MyTek, floated the notion of Multi Bit DSD.Michael, from Mytek:
"1) Multibit DSD is not PCM.
PCM is typically 24 bit of the whole sample value while multi bit DSD is typically 5-6 bits of DIFFERENCE between adjacent samples. In 1 bit DSD this difference is binary(0 or 1) while in multi bit DSD it's the same difference between samples but quantized with 5-6 bits (Sabre has a 6 bit DAC). Multibit DSD is BETTER than 1 bit DSD, so there is nothing wrong with going 1 bit> 6bit which is what all these DAC chips do.
2) The " purity of 1 bit " is a marketing spin resulting from how DSD was marketed by Sony, but it's not 1 bit that makes it sound good, but it's nature. What makes DSD sound good is the conversion method (differential btwn samples- not the actual sample) and no digital filters , it's simply cleaner. 1 bit DAC conversion has the appeal of simplicity (perfect linearity theoretically) in the early 2000s. We are now well past that with performance requirement. We need more bits to resolve detail better.
3) All PCM conversion today (99% of ADCs) is a derivative of multi bit DSD.
PCM is always a subset of that, so naturally it can only have less information, not more.In our latest experiments PCM has to have at least 32 bit to compete with DSD low level resolution and 352kFS to compete with lightness of DSD.
In the experiments with our newest prototype ADC, when we reduce wordlength of ADC from 32 to 24 bit, signal deteriorates."
Edits: 03/30/16 03/30/16 03/30/16
DSD is generated by a sigma delta modulator (a.k.a. a delta sigma modulator). These do not output differences between "samples". These output a string of samples, one at each clock tick. The samples are made from the output of an integrator. The integrator is fed with the difference of two analog signals, the input waveform and the output of the previous sample. This is a complex process with non-linear feedback. It is not a simple difference between input samples. (That also exists, but is called "delta modulation" as opposed to "sigma delta modulation".)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Correct me if I am wrong, the designer of your DAC is perfectly ok with multibit DSD and the Sabre chip.
My Esoteric D02 converts PCM to DSD. The Berkeley Audio Reference DAC does also. Of course, there are a growing number of DAC's in all price ranges that can process DSD natively. But as for strictly conversion, that list is probably smaller.
The Berkeley Reference DAC does not support DSD at all, only PCM. Some manufacturers whose DACs internally convert PCM to DSD are Playback Designs, EMM Labs, and Meitner's recent models.
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