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In Reply to: RE: WHat about DSD?? posted by morricab on November 20, 2015 at 03:45:14
Below are comments posted by Mike Moffat's were posted on Headfi.
"I have never published my DSD opinions. Here they are. I say opinions because the design of audio gear should adhere to hard science. The user's response however, is totally in that user's psyche. When I worked in Peru, there were tribes in the Amazon region who spoke in vocabularies limited to grunts and delighted in eating insects they found under logs. Then there are people like myself who prefer meat, coffee, dairy, sometimes things green or fruity, starches, and lots of salt.
In the early days of digital audio, multibit reigned. It was suitable, but expensive, derived as it was from weapons guidance and medical science. Note the use of the word science. Analog numbers were converted to digital, and the reverse yielded the same number. Nothing was averaged, no noise was added, no economic engineering geniuses were allowed to make anything cheaper with smoke and mirrors.
The earliest DACs were pretty marginal, but natural selection led to the Burr-Brown PCM-63, an amazing multibit DAC, still pretty good today. About that time, Burr Brown was sold to Texas Instruments. There began to appear delta-sigma dacs, which is a fancy name for reduced bit width DACs which used the above alluded to tricks of averaging and noise shaping to make up for the data they threw away. Soon we had TI, Wolfson, Crystal Semiconductor, Phillips, and many more manufacturers of these (now marketed as audio - read dogschiit) DACs. Why stoop to make them?? Simple - they're cheaper! Never mind they can't be used in medical imaging or defense applications because of their inherent data loss/hallucination. Too late, the audio customer had far cheaper gear. The chip makers sold lots of parts.
Enter DSD, the ultimate extension of this idea. More noise and less bitwidth. You get for free with the bargain, the elimination of the nasty anti-alias filter effects used in the recordings. Cool, huh. This idea works well just as soon as every recording studio on the planet switches over. When that happens (right), what about the old recordings like all of those from SACD days of yore!! Oops, they are already recorded with the filter in place... Unfortunately, they are the bulk of the current DSD catalog available. Can you get DSD from iTunes?? Download DSD from Amazon?? Oh...
What about 1, 2, 4, or 87.6x native DSD recordings. Yeah there's a few - I really loved the Folsom Prison Castrati Singers doing Handel soprano motets. My all time fave is the Orkney Island shepherd's Poems and Cries of Ecstacy with the sheep. The plaintive cries and bleats of all involved were immaculately suspended in perfect panoramic image. Even the subtle sounds of the shepherds gently placing the sheep's rear legs in their boots were clearly audible.
Nobody ever explained to me how to design a multi-rate 1x, 2x, etc DSD DAC without a real expensive adaptive filter. Do you optimize it for 1X? 2X? 5.76X? Trouble is, then all of the other rates are compromised. Maybe the over $10K DACs do that. I haven't figured out how to make an over $10K DAC yet, maybe someone will teach me.
In conclusion - this is opinion, mine with respect to DSD: How can I express just how underwhelmed I am. Adjectives such as stillborn, faith-based, and ludicrous come to mind.
But wait - I actually built the Loki DSD DAC! How can I be such a hypocrite! The answer is that I will try almost anything once. If I don't like it, I won't do it again. But I could be wrong - if servers ever get big/cheap enough that iTunes and Amazon offer DSD downloads AND major label music providers begin to provide native DSD recordings in substantial numbers - then I will cook and eat a crow at RMAF. Meanwhile, all you DSDers - enjoy the grubs!! Buy a Loki!"
Follow Ups:
Proof is in the Sound for me.
DSD 128 is great.
So many Haters, it Can't Work, so I'll ignore it.
Stereo review said all amps sound the same.
Do you believe that too?
Granted Mikie Moffat obviously is not a fan of DSD but I respect his knowledge and accomplishments. I don't have any DSD and probably 99.5% of my collection is standard resolution. That ratio is not going to change significantly in the near future. I'm not hating on DSD. It's just not relevant for me now. That's why I didn't buy a DSD capable dac. That's what worked for me. You apparently have followed a different path. Happy listening.
Started by Sony to sell hardware and re-released software from their SACD days.
It was all a pipedream - 'We can get rich selling new boxes and old recordings we don't even have to create media or packaging for!'.
And of no benefit to the consumer at all. One of the most callow and dishonest bits of hype I've ever seen from the hi-fi industry. And the competition in that 'callow and dishonest' category is pretty intense.
"To Learn Who Rules Over You, Simply Find Out Who You Are Not Allowed to Criticize."
-Voltaire
/
Guessing he took WAY too many pucks to the head. ;-)
..do you realy not know who Mike Moffat is?
It's what he SAYS not what he THINKS.
If I manufacture tube amps only, sand amps suck. If I manufacture SS amps only, tube amps are noisy distortion generators that can't control a well designed modern speakers.
In other words, he's just 'Talking his Book'.
The only universal truth that I've been able to find regards audio is:
"Turntables are optimized for music, computers are optimized for porn!"
Obviously you don't. This is a fruitless exchange aas you appear to have difficulty in expressing yourself without resorting to profanity and confrontational behavior. I don't know why you're reacting so aggressively. This is a hobby that many of us enjoy. You are overreacting. Chill out.
And yes, I do know who the Mike Moffat you referred to in your original post is (OK, not the hockey player I pictured in my post above, also named Mike Moffat) and yes I have read (and enjoyed) his humorous comments posted on the FAQ of his website and yes, he was kind enough to allow me to listen at length to his top two products in his DAC and balanced headphone amp range (YGGDRASIL/RAGNAROK) at the last RMAF.
And, in fact, the combo sounded VERY good(as I have posted on AA in the past), especially with HiFIMan's new mega-buck HE-1000.
In fact, it may well be equal in SQ to my Audio-GD Master 11 DAC/Headphone amp, which ALSO is a multi-bit DAC which will NOT play DSD! Folks who have heard both side by side in the same system claim they are in the same class.
But then, even though I do not even own a system that will play DSD files, other than an SACD player which hardly counts, I am NOT taking a hard, cold position that DSD, or any other digital format(OK, maybe DAT tape), has no value because...
I know better.
And so does Mike Moffat.
But he has the YGGDRASIL to sell, so...
Oh, and at $2299, it sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
Oh, and me being profane and aggressive?
My first reply had a 'smiley face' ;-0
And I not the founder of a company named SCHIIT!
OK, I DO OVERUSE ALL CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!
My bad. :-(
I happen to think what he says makes a lot of sense. Ultimately, beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Anyhow, let's move on. I'm sure your Audio-GD Master 11 DAC is a fine piece. Happy listening.
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