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In Reply to: RE: slow/fast roll-off filters pre-ringing in real world? posted by dave789 on July 17, 2015 at 08:36:35
"I am wondering whether this difference is realized in real world music play."
Nobody will agree on this one.... All things equal, I prefer a "slow rolloff" filter because I think transient behavior is just as important as frequency response.... I also prefer "minimum phase" filtering, because "ringing" is more compatible with "decays" of a music transient than with "attacks"....
If I were to use a custom digital filter, I'd use one with a "Lanczos 2" characteristic for the pre-ringing, "Lanczos 4" for the post-ringing.
Follow Ups:
Hi Mr. Krieger,
i have a question about filters.
It is quite clear to me that digital filters have an impact on sound quality, and maybe often a negative impact.
I read that SACD allows for the use of analog filters.
I know that you are against upsampling ... but could it be that upsampling the cds to sacd format the benefits of using analog filters could be superior to the drawbacks of the upsampling process ?
Just thinking.
I read also that SACDs tend to sound a little flat and undynamic, but quite natural. For me this should be a priority.
I like natural e not synthesized sounds ... natural to me means real.
Many chips these days i guess upsample cds to sacd ... but i am not sure.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 07/21/15
i have a question about filters.
"It is quite clear to me that digital filters have an impact on sound quality, and maybe often a negative impact."
It even depends on the recording as well.....
"I read that SACD allows for the use of analog filters."
Actually any digital medium allows for that.......
"I know that you are against upsampling ... but could it be that upsampling the cds to sacd format the benefits of using analog filters could be superior to the drawbacks of the upsampling process ?"
Upsampling implies the use of digital filters.... They're inseparable. Although analog filters can still be used as "post filters", after the upsampling conversion.
If the CD is upsampled via DSD (which I think is compatible w SACD conversion), it's synchronous.... The upsampling I don't like is "asynchronous" conversion, where the conversion is prone to jitter and noise artifacts becoming embedded into the signal. DSD does not have this problem. (Remember, your resolution for CD playback is still 16/44, no matter how it's upconverted.)
"I read also that SACDs tend to sound a little flat and undynamic, but quite natural. For me this should be a priority."
Whatever works.... I don't like SACDs because they become unbearable after 10 minutes of listening.........
"I like natural e not synthesized sounds ... natural to me means real.
Many chips these days i guess upsample cds to sacd ... but i am not sure."
Unless it's a DSD conversion, I don't think it "upsamples to SACD".... But then again, I personally wouldn't want it "upsampled to SACD".... The end result is the disadvantages of both CD and SACD (CD resolution with extra RFI), with the advantages of neither.......
Hi and thanks a lot Mr. Krieger for the very valuable advice.
I am quite ignorant.
Could it be that " synchronous DSD conversion " of CDs may have some potential for natural and good sound ?
I like sound relaxed but with detail.
I am mostly interested in CDs and maybe 16/48 files. Because i heard nice sounds also from some cd players. Today i am mainly interested in dacs because i am using more various types of streamers (i.e. Squezeebox and the like).
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Best results will depend on the filtering used in the ADC or downsampling. This can be shown by theory, measurement and listening tests.
If the original recording was apodized and used a minimum phase filter, then it will be possible to use a steep linear phase filter without introducing any preringing (or adding any additional post ringing) or adding additional phase shift. If not, then other filter settings may be needed for best results. As a general rule, however, if one wants to use the same settings for all recordings then it is probably best to use a linear phase filter with slow roll-off (and slightly apodizing). This minimizes the maximum sonic damage, IMO.
I spent a lot of time reaching these conclusions. In the end, I concluded that the 44 kHz formats were inadequate and that it was probably not worth obsessing over this unfortunate fact of history. Filter choices at higher sampling rates are much less signficiant.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I beleive Ayre's "MP" filter they use in the "listen" switch position is exactly this sort of filter arrangement on their C-5xeMP disc player.
"I spent a lot of time reaching these conclusions. In the end, I concluded that the 44 kHz formats were inadequate and that it was probably not worth obsessing over this unfortunate fact of history. Filter choices at higher sampling rates are much less signficiant."
I agree that it probably isn't worth losing sleep over, too. I own a Rega DAC (was my main DAC but now in back room) - and it allows you to choose filters at the press of a button. Fun stuff to tweak away with 48kHz and below material - and would generate some minor differences. At higher resolution, didn't seem to have very much in the way of impact at all.
The Berkeely Audio DAC-2 has a defaul setting. But it also has several other filter settings, that are really meant for stdio use - since they "simulate" crummy filters that might be in use in some playback devices. I have cycled through them a couple of times and agree with their assessment. (I think their regular DAC's are "one foot in the studio")
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My last DAC the PS Audio PWD had different filters and I thought the filters made only a small difference.
I agree!
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