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Interesting.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
Follow Ups:
I'll attempt to address a number of the points I see throughout this thread.
Other than the form-factor, the new NuWave DSD DAC shares almost nothing with the old-gen NuWave DAC. It's new from the power supply and input CPLD through the chipset to the analog stage. No, it does not convert all inputs to DSD, like the DirectStream; that would require a lot more computing power than one can squeeze into a unit at this price-point.
As far as an integrated amp with built-in DAC equaling the sound quality at this price-point... there may be some standalone DACs of which that's true. I've seen units where it seems very little has been done to improve the performance of the DAC, beyond having just slapped a common chipset into a separate box. That's not the case with this or any PS product. Every effort is made to milk the last iota of performance out of every piece at every price-point, and retail pricing is based on strict multiples of manufacturing and parts costs; we don't say, "we need a $1300 unit", and then try to build it for fifty bucks.
So--as far as "flashy boutique products offering little value"--I'm with you. But that's certainly not applicable here. PS has made high-value , high-performance products for over 40 years, and certainly has proven that their pricing goes to the guts of the products, not bling.
And as far as "have to update the firmware every two weeks"-- that's just wrong. No one HAS to update the firmware/OS, and when new releases come, they are significant improvements in both sound quality and in measured specs--and they're certainly not every two weeks. Ted Smith and our guys have created an architecture that allows for an already exemplary performer to be improved as time goes on. Would you prefer something that's obsolete as soon as you buy it?
I can tell you, based on personal auditions, that DirectStream sounds more natural and lifelike than anything I've heard, and I've heard digital rigs that cost well into six figures. I think it offers amazing value. Look at the DACs listed in Class A+ in Stereophile's Recommended Components; the DirectStream is one of the least-expensive, and has been considerably improved since that ranking. Have any of those other units been improved since they were listed, at no cost to owners? I don't think so.
Yes, I do work for PS; yes, I am the marketing guy. But I've also been around audio for four decades, and stand by my words and my reputation.
Bill Leebens
Director of Marketing, PS Audio
just a couple of thoughts....
The thought of a transport for SACD is interesting indeed!! Also, as someone who also works with software, I for one will say I appreciate the fact that the team at PS Audio continues to try to improve the product.... and gets out the software in a rapid development style as opposed to holding on to upgrades for say... a year. I think this says a lot about the team ... and the 'lets just make the product better' mentality - as opposed to worrying about 'how something might look'....
Awesome -- keep up with the upgrades..... Thanks Tim.
Thank you, Timm!
I appreciate your kind words a great deal, and will pass them on to our guys.
Cheers, Bill
I appreciate you giving the perspective of the manufacturer, and for making it clear you are the marketing person for PS Audio.
I think it is fair to hear from all sides.
For the record, I see 6 major software updates on your website for the DirectStream DAC. That is quite a bit for a relatively new product, no matter how it is spun. Yes, it was not an update every two weeks.
I clearly see the DS as a breakthrough product, but I also have to be honest in that it is puzzling that it does not have the ability to hook up to an SACD transport and that the DSD conversion is not defeatable.. Just my two cents.
The DSD upgrades are FREE (where do you see that any longer) and each one has audibly improved performance. PS Audio should be lauded for constantly improving a new, breakthrough product and sharing those improvements with its customers, rather than going the route of Audio Research, e.g., where in 6 months you have the SE version, then the Signature version, then the next great version with a new model number, and it costs a fortune to upgrade -- when you can at all.
I am a fan with no financial interest in praising PSA. Just like to give credit where it's due.
Neal
I appreciate your appreciation. ;->
Regarding the software/OS updates: DirectStream was launched 16 months ago--so 6 updates over that period means an update came out about every 2 1/2 months. Each one has drastically improved the unit's performance.
Most users are excited by that fact-- but as is always the case, not everyone will appreciate the opportunity for improvement, if change is required. Such is life. And to be clear: the updates are optional, not mandatory, and are fully-reversible.
Regarding the output of an SACD player: digital output is only available from certain versions of Play Station III and (illegally-)hacked Oppo players. We are in the process of negotiating a possible solution for our next generation of transports, but be aware that this restriction applies to all manufacturers--not just PS.
Regarding the DSD conversion: the entire structure of the DirectStream
is based upon the conversion to DSD, and is responsible for the unit's performance. In order to bypass the conversion, it would be necessary to provide an alternate route, such as a standard PCM DAC chip--which would not perform as well.
I'm afraid I don't see the point of that.
Regards,
Bill Leebens
Director of Marketing, PS Audio
Hi Bill:Noted on defeatable DSD upsampling. It would require a whole new architecture.
On the firmware, I have no doubt that each one was developed with good intentions.
But just playing devils advocate here..each firmware update was reported as a massive improvement, which kind of makes the original product look not ready for prime time. So saying the updates are optional is a bit questionable when you have the press engaging in hyperbole.
Got it on the SACD...but I was referring to the fact it is curious PS Audio does not make their own SACD transport.
I know you can't please every camp.
I personally know several analog heads who hate digital who went bananas after hearing the DS DAC.
Alas, anything that gets a bit hyped in the press, is an easy target.
Edits: 07/08/15
Sprezza:
Having spent a lot of years in manufacturing, I know that once a product is released, the maker continues to learn more about it, and is able to determine ways in which the product could be made better.
The sad part is that most products are locked in place, once they've been released--and the customer can't benefit from the potential improvements.
The beauty of the DirectStream architecture is that we can continue to improve it as we learn more, and the customer can update their unit forever. For free.
We are working on a next-gen transport, and it will play SACD.
Bill Leebens
Director of Marketing, PS Audio
Hard to argue with free improvements.
Thanks for the info the next gen transport.
It just seemed to me that those of us with large SACD collections would be stuck with a Redbook transport.
Good news.
For that money you can get a very good integrated amplifier with a DAC included, say a Marantz 8005, and I'll be damned if anyone could consistently tell the difference between the DACs, blind. IMO flashy, boutique products offering little value. I won't even comment on the pricier model where you have to update the firmware every two weeks and burn in for months before it sounds as it should. Sad.
I don't believe the Marantz PA-8005 includes a DAC, and the SA-8005 is a disk spinner but not an amp.
Marantz house sound at this price point is OK, but a better DAC experience can be had in the $1000 price range.
I have both the NA-7004, which listed for about $800 when new, and the DV-9600 which was at one time Marantz's best multi silver-disk spinner and originally listed $2000, albeit nearly a decade ago.
Happy with both.
I had three kilobuck dacs once and they all sounded pretty similar, although I did have a favorite among them.
But their not sounding better than the built in dac in a thousand dollar amp?
I find that hard to believe.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
i'll give you a full afternoon to compare, where you're not sure which is which, and then ask you if you want to spend 2x as much on the separates, instead of 50 hi res downloads or CDs.......
My Marantz SACD player doesn't sound near as good as any of these dacs.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
You make a very good point.
I think excellent advice in these times for digital is buy cheap and buy often.
i didn't see where this uses Ted's FPGA tech and upconverts everything to DSD on the fly like the Directstream DAC does.....
And, of course Sabre chips....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
No it does not..they are engaging in a sales campaign to murkily connect your DAC to this, which is basically just the NuWave with DSD. The NuWave was a very ordinary sounding piece. Think Benchmark with optional upsampling to 192.
I usually get my info from friends first, or friends pointing to reviews, etc...
This one seems beyond to me and borders on problematic hyperbole. As Ted's work is centered around FPGA tech, upconverting EVERYTHING to DSD in real time, then on to Analog.
As I read it, - they seem to imply that they've "trickled down" the FPGA/live DSD to a DAC at 1/5 the price.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
as Tony indicates below, it certainly shares little with the DirectStream other than it is being vaguely connected as trickle down as you note.
It is essentially the NuWave DAC with DSD decoding for another few hundred bucks.
The marketing is a bit over the edge for my taste.
They say 'yes, it's a better dac on 16/44, you will hear a difference over the original'.
He also said it was an 'FPGA' dac and had been reworked quite a bit from the NWD.
I'm leery of the marketing as well, but I guess we'll just have to see what people who have one say.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
Thanks for the update. I did not mean to imply they did not improve it or the previous version, they have a history of doing just that.
I guess the thing is causing concern is their trying to link it to the DirectStream some how, when it appears to have none of Ted Smith's core scheme.
As you say, let's see.
For the record, I think the iFI Pro DAC, coming in August, for the same price, will be the better product based on my experience with the NuWave and the Micro iDSD. Speculation of course..disclaimer.
"As I read it, - they seem to imply that they've "trickled down" the FPGA/live DSD to a DAC at 1/5 the price."
Don't think so. Ted's FPGA includes his own DSD modulator, thereby eliminating the need for an off the shelf DAC chip. The new product uses a SABRE chip, as indicated by the "Features" tab on the product web site, which references "ESS Hyperstream".
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
In it's price class I found the NuWave to be a great bargain. I preferred it over any Benchmark I've heard and it was more resolving and transparent than the W4S DAC2 that I also owned. There's an inmate here who traded his Schiit Bifrost for the NuWave. It's not the last word in DACs but at $1000 (more typically $700 street), it was hard to beat just a short couple years ago.
Edits: 06/28/15
At $700 the NuWave is a good buy. It was very well made and optional upsampling is a rare thing.
I just never took to the sound...a lot like the MyTek..dry.
and anything else in a decent DAC with SPDIF coax and optical input and with decent headphone amp all in a single box.
Primary use would be as a DAC for the SONOS Connect. USB DAC secondary and less important at this point. Headphone amp quality would be also high on the priority list.
Any thoughts?
Shoot me a private email if you like as I do have a thought about the HA-1 that I'm about to put up on Audiogon. I have too many DACs.
.
Yes but you're over $400 below the waterline of prestige (see below).
How does it sound and have you cracked the ability(?) to play dsd via coax?
still sounds good. different chipset than ps audio though.
They claim accepts ANY digital source.ooops unless that source is AES/EBU.
Edits: 06/27/15
No 384K!
Interesting. Def. a better value proposition than their $6000 DAC.
I could not take that product seriously. 5 or 6 firmware updates in the first 6 months. Each one was a "game changer"..gimme a break.
Paul McGowan is too much of a salesman for me.
All that being said, their expensive DAC certainly has a lot of fans.
.
I'd give it a serious look.
See head-fi for reviews
http://www.head-fi.org/t/676930/audio-gd-nfb-28
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Give this a serious look.... Easy return policy. for $299 they are a steal. I've got 2 of them....I've had a lot of DACs in my house. These are 'killer'
Cut-Throat
If I went that route I'd have to lie about what I owned when I posted on audio chat boards like this one.
If you don't spent a least $1K on a DAC you got no cred. ;-)
Yes, my biggest hurdle was moving from my Lexus to a Hyundai Genesis. But, I got over it because it's a better car!
Cut-Throat
Yep, that's about as 'mid-fi' as a car can get.
Wouldn't you really rather have a Buick?
No thanks. I'll take my 429 H.P. Genesis.
Cut-Throat
Nice!
I think of Hyundai as the 'new' Lexus. When Lexus first hit the market with luxury cars people questioned if a Japanese car had any credibility in the luxury market.
Hyundai seems to have matured a lot over the past several years. They always offered more for your money but had reliability concerns. I believe most of that is behind them.
I still like German cars for performance and handling but there's always some quirky little thing that annoys or goes wrong.
Yes, this is my second Genesis. My 2011 has been flawless. My first 1999 Lexus GS300 was Flawless also. Not so much with my 2007 Lexus GS350.
Cut-Throat
Have you seen any special offers on this new DAC? When they came out with the original NuWave DAC, PS Audio would take $300 off the MSRP if you traded in ANY working DAC. Dealers had similar offers.
When I sent PS Audio my $19 DAC (bought new off Amazon!) as a trade-in they honored it, but soon after changed the trade-in policy to include only DACs that had a much higher new price... $500 if I recall correctly. ;-)
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