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In Reply to: RE: About depth of field with digital posted by Thorsten on May 09, 2015 at 01:50:40
Hi and thanks again and sorry if i insist.
This is the point that interests me more, and actually i asked just this at the beginning ..." This is not correct. Soundstage depth is inherent to the recording.... Good recordings contain good spatial rendering in themselves. "
Perfect. Let's take an analog recording on tape or vinyl with an exceptionally captured and "natural" soundstage.
If i make a digital copy and play it back the soundstage will be intact ?
this for me is the acid test for any digital recorders and more in general AD-DA converters.
For instance i read of a guy doing this with an LP and a Korg recorder.
The copy had a shrinked soundstage. Narrower and flatter ... while the overall tone was quite ok.
This means to me that soundstage is challenging and it is an excellent tool to evaluate a playback system, analog and digital.
Actually i would do only this test.
Same room, same system, same excellent recording and different dacs.
The differences would pop up immediately.
The deeper the better ... i am sure of this.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/09/15Follow Ups:
Hi,
> Perfect. Let's take an analog recording on tape or vinyl with
> an exceptionally captured and "natural" soundstage.
We can just take a microphone feed? How about that? And a speaker setup that handles this well using the microphone feed?
> If i make a digital copy and play it back the soundstage will
> be intact ?
Considering how many possible sample-rates, different equipments etc. exist this is a incorrectly asked question.
The answer BTW is that yes, using certain systems and formats this is possible, it is more so possible than with magnetic tape, never mind LP.
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
Hi and thanks again indeed.
This is very intriguing. Actually the world of music is changed with the recording of sounds ... an incredible invention.
I am fascinated by audio recording.
And when you say " ... using certain systems and formats this is possible ... " i guess redbook format has no chance. Hasn't it ?
And if i think that i have a music collection of only cds i would like to cry ... Life is a compromise.
Maybe just 48k would have made a remarkable difference .. what a pity that most of the music around is on a lesser format.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/09/15
Hi,
> i guess redbook format has no chance. Hasn't it ?
Try listening to some recordings Keith Johnson has done for Reference Recordings, on a good system (say non-oversampling Multibit DAC single ended Triode Amplifiers or low feedback Triode Push-Pull Amplifiers and Tannoy Red 15" Coaxials or maybe Altec 604's with Mastering Labs Crossovers, I guess Spectral electronics and Avalon speakers should also count). You may be surprised how much space there can be on CD.
Friends used to joke I should pay more council tax as the sound scape went not just into the next terraced house on some recordings, but even into the one next to that, subjectively. Some Decca Recordings (try Dutoit/MSO Organ Symphony for an excellent example on CD) also manage to throw unbelievably deep and wide soundscapes.
Some reference recordings are available as CD Format (with HDCD) and as 88.2 or 176.4kHz/24Bit. I will say 24/88 or 176 is better, but the CD's illustrate just how good CD can be.
> Maybe just 48k would have made a remarkable difference ..
I would say had the format been made (say) 18 Bit at 64kHz we would have no debate. But at 44.1kHz and 16 Bit we are just short enough that the limits of the format can become obvious (I would say for > 80% of recordings they are not the limit).
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
Hi Mr. Thorsten !
thanks a lot again for the very precious advice.
I hope one is the one in the picture ... i bought it now.
I will put it in my reference cds group.
Soundstage is a very excting feature of a system indeed.
I think i have also understood your position on the fierce debate multibit vs. delta-sigma dac chips very populare nowadays by these your words:
" .... Try listening to some recordings Keith Johnson has done for Reference Recordings, on a good system (say non-oversampling Multibit DAC ... "
Unfortunately it seems that manufacturers have completely stopped the production of multibit dac chips in favour of delta-sigma ... a real pity i guess.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/10/15
Hi,
Yes, it is the one in the pic. It is great music and a great recording, these two often do not get hand in hand.
I did not quite nail my colours.
I personally value "a spacious sound", but I am not a total a soundstage freak either. Flat as a pancake will not do, but cavernous virtual rooms are not needed for me to enjoy music, but I do not mind them.
The system I described delivered this, on the right LP's or CD's. I am not sure how many others do.
But the point, cavernous soundstaging is not impossible on CD, but many factors conspire against it, few that are down to the format itself.
I suggest you read my (still dumbed down) sidebar to an interview, to illustrate my take on DS and MB.
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
Thanks a lot again !
I will read your interview very carefully.
I think i have more ears than brain in the sense that i am quite slow to understand but i guess i can spot good sound when i listen to it.
I have followed a little the discussion about multibit vs. delta-sigma without understanding much. But i see many looking for vintage multibit dac chip based converters.
I understand industry has stopped producing them.
And many say it is a really bad thing for audio. There are no hopes to see multibit dacs again.
But i have to read your interview first.
Thank you very much indeed.
Kindest regards.
Kind regards,
bg
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