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In Reply to: RE: About depth of field with digital posted by beppe61 on May 07, 2015 at 23:34:17
Heppe,
The music tracks on Sheffield are the best tests. If you can get what you want with Sheffield you're done, others CD's will reveal what's in it then.
As you know every minus 6 dB on CD means 1 bit less resolution. Ambiance, "depth", natural sound rendering all are minus 20 to minus 60 dB very low level signal. These can't be reproduced like with the best analogue recordings, vinyl, reel to reel. That's why "depth" on CD is alway's artificially added by digital sound processors to suggest some depth/ambiance, even on reissues. And that sounds not right.
So don't be disappointed if you don't get things like you have in your mind. Fiddle around with Audacity to observe the frequency's above 1 kHz and their levels. (Spectrum analizer) You'll see the very low levels, calculate the resolution and you'll see for yourself. Digital is the best format for convenience, but a major setback in soundquality after the best analogue formats/recordings/ platters.
I say this after 25 years of CD's, upgrading, tweaking, buying remastered CD's. For pure musical enjoyment it never topped my 45's, 331/3 and even 78's that I collected since the late 50-ties. CD's give me listening fatigue, since more than 15 years I stopped buying CD's because of dynamic compression except some CD's that are good.
Follow Ups:
"As you know every minus 6 dB on CD means 1 bit less resolution. Ambiance, "depth", natural sound rendering all are minus 20 to minus 60 dB very low level signal. These can't be reproduced like with the best analogue recordings, vinyl, reel to reel. That's why "depth" on CD is alway's artificially added by digital sound processors to suggest some depth/ambiance, even on reissues."
A properly dithered 16 bit PCM recording will have no problem conveying all the "ambiance" found in the recording. The noise floor and levels of distortion found in typical records and tapes are much higher and do obscure fine musical detail. Digital sound processing such as Dolby ProLogic II can add depth to stereo recordings through delay and phase manipulation, and can be very effective when judiciously applied.
Depth of field, that is low level, is recorded with to low resolution to sound good. Artificial reverb, processing has nothing to do with High Fidelity.
These are annoying tricks, at least for me.
I respect everyone's solution to make their fav music good sounding, if someone is happy with a digital sound processor it's fine, good luck.
Hi and thanks a lot.
You mean that the tracks on that cd are the result of some processing ?
I was not aware of this for sure.
The superiority of analog vs. the cd format is proven by the fact that higher rez formats are needed to make an equally good sounding copy.
I read often that at aroung 20 bit / 96 kHz the differences are difficult to spot between the original and its digital copy.But still the result is different from system to system. I have tested that personally.
Agreed that the analog is untouchable for cd, but there is always better and worse digital.
If not you will see only people with 100 USD dac and not 20k dacs and transports. Are they crazy ?
And all the discussions about dacs upgrading ? i guess also when cd is the format involved. This sounds strange to me.
But i am waiting for some evolution ...
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/08/15
> > The superiority of analog vs. the cd format is proven by the fact that higher rez formats are needed to make an equally good sounding copy. < <
Bullshit!!!
I've heard far too many compromised and even brutal sounding peaky SACDs, in which many a CD would chomp. SACD/DSD has the EXACT same sonic anchor as ANY other format, its potential SQ =dependent on the provenance of the recording.
Hi and sorry but i am a little slow to catch.
Do you mean that digital is good but what they do with is bad ?
I am trying to understand ...
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/08/15 05/08/15
> > Do you mean that digital is good but what they do with it is bad < <
well kinda (big sigh)) ...
Look Beppe, it's obvious you've come here honestly. Your vast inexperience is also as obvious; nothing wrong with that, we all have to start somewhere ... but once you start quoting or justifying scriptures of highly biased anti-CD individuals as some sort of fact; you might as well bark up the same ole silly tree.
And again, if you build your system based on 1 single link within a very long chain ... not only are you limiting yourself musically, you're also limiting your intellectual self.
If you lived in Toronto, I'd consider inviting you over, and trust me ... that experience alone would prove far more beneficial to anything anyone (including myself) has stated here.
Good luck in the future.
Hi and thanks again for the valuable advice and kind invitation
Unfortunately i am quite far away from Toronto ... i am in Norway now
I started from a point ... i have never been dissatisfied by analog
It could have been better or worse but always musically ok
Bad digital is complete shit and i heard it many times.
And very good digital is very very expensive.
And dac plays a fundamental rule in a digital source.
Now i see here for more or less 3000 USD a 2nd hand Berkeley Audio Alpha dac ... i am sure it is an exceptional unit.
If i buy it and place in my system and the sound is not good i can be sure that is not a dac fault.
And then i could put the blame on the transport.
I would like a dac that i can completely trust and that can be a definitive element of the chain.
Maybe 3000 USD for a 2nd hand unit is the price of ammission for getting a dac above suspicion ?
It is also true that it has a high quality digital volume and can work also as line preamp.
Love that dac. And i need a dac.
But 3000 USD .. is a lot of money indeed.
Thanks again for the kind invitation.
Kind regards,
bg
> > Bad digital is complete shit and i heard it many times. < <
Me too, but since the contrary is also true, one can't define the entire medium base on only crappers.
> > And very good digital is very very expensive. < <
Well, matter of perspective, but generally, I sadly agree. That said, good budget players do exist, and the second hand market is ripe full of choices.
Norway is one country I'd love to visit ... if you ever venture all this way ... feel free to ping me.
> > Bad digital is complete shit and i heard it many times. < <
" Me too, but since the contrary is also true, one can't define the entire medium base on only crappers. "
Hi and thanks again. Anyway for me analog is a non issue.
I will never go back to LP or tape. Absolutely.
I am stuck to digital for ever.
So i am interested to get the possible most out of it ... at a reasonable price.
> > And very good digital is very very expensive. < <
" Well, matter of perspective, but generally, I sadly agree. That said, good budget players do exist, and the second hand market is ripe full of choices. "
actually i have complicated my life when i decided to ripped all my cds to a nas. I am sure of what you say and especially now i see cd players of 10-20 years ago of very high quality sold cheap.
But there is no going back also on this point.
" Norway is one country I'd love to visit ... "
Yes it is a beautiful country ... little cold maybe for an italian like me. We are much closer to Africa ... not only geographically sometimes.
But i am getting old and some warmer climate would not be offensive.
I can recommend you the Lofoten Islands in the North maybe from June to September ... amazing places.
" if you ever venture all this way ... feel free to ping me. "
Thanks a lot again. Canada must be also a very beautiful place.
And the space you have ... it must be immense.
Completely different from Italy.
You live in a great country. Lucky you.
Kindest regards, beppe
Kind regards,
bg
Beppe,
See my last post in answer to T-bone. Most recommended the vinyl mono version for absolute distortion free natural sound/stage. Though the CD is magnificent also.
25 years experience with digital: digital is digital regardless of price, tweaking, upgrading, rumours on the Asylum, hifi magazines, advertisements.
All DAC's in my opinion sound the same, you cannot have a fault in the DAC because then it doesn't do anything, compare digital TV, the DAC must be faultless , if not picture gone or distorted. I am afraid you want something digital is not capable of. I quit some time ago and spend my money on nicer things, money enough but money can't buy me satisfactory digital reproduction.
Biggest differences imo after the DAC, one lousy opamp can destroy everything. But that is almost never the case as tweaking with valve output has proven.
It's all in the software, omit bad CD's. if you bought a bad one throw it in the bin, complaining to the music industry senseless, I complained several times, letters, e-mail, no response or arrogant reply like you must renew your DAC, useless, arrogant.
Hi and thanks again.
Well honestly your statements shock me and make me think seriously.
I indeed heard differences ... but i am not that sure anymore.
It could have been something else instead of the actual dac used ?
I have also complicated my life because i wanted all the cd collection on a hard drive ...
But i really got the message. I will relax a bit for now, wait and see what will happen.
But i am too lazy and messy for vinyl ... i should have to raise from the sofa every 20 minutes or so ... unacceptable (joke .. this would make me just good)
I am mainly concerned with the delicacy of the system.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Beppe,
Recording is step one, postprocessing is step 2, here things go wrong in the wrong hands. If you want more soundstage, ambiance and that kind of things rip a favorite track to the computer and enhance it with AUDACITY or any other digital processor with reverb, delay, echo, compression, to much to mention, and burn it on CD-r. Very interesting. Or buy a digital soundprocessor, very cheap nowaday's or use the line-in and line-out of a junkyard homecinemaset, all kinds of ambiance possebility's at hand, you can experiment what you want and makeup your mind if this is what you want.
Postprocessing is now in your own hands, I use it for my piano recordings when someones wants his own CD. Just recording sounds very dry and some compression is necessary otherwise dynamics are to big for replay on non high end gear.
> > If you want more soundstage, ambiance and that kind of things rip a favorite track to the computer and enhance it with AUDACITY or any other digital processor with reverb, delay, echo, compression, to much to mention, and burn it on CD-r. < <
That's an artificial non-factual, poorly conceived way of recreating a false "soundstage" which will sound false in any decent system ... totally unrelated to the recreation of any soundstage based on the actual recorded event.
you're confused ...
Posted by TBone (A) on May 8, 2015 at 15:35:37
Reading my post is not your strongest ability.
It is a suggestion for Beppe to play around and to establish what he is looking for. He can be his own engineer. I have lots of fun creating own recordings of my guests on the piano with the aid of Audacity. And I only want other people to have fun also, in Beppes case to set his mind at ease and give him some insight in recording and postprocessing.
Again you were premature in your reply. Glad you're not my neighbour.
That's an artificial non-factual, poorly conceived way of recreating a false "soundstage" which will sound false in any decent system ... totally unrelated to the recreation of any soundstage based on the actual recorded event.
That's the problem with most recordings: recreation of the soundstage, that doen't exist anymore, only on special vintage recordings or some demonstration stuff. It's almost ALWAY's a false artificial soundstage made by some "engineer" to please the taste of the moment, to comply to the newest fad (surround etc). Ever listened to recordings from 1930 up to now ? Every year a new sound artificially made by postprocessing. Listen to the variety of echochambers, the copycats thereafter. Sound for sound's sake.
Dynamic compression on hardrock, grunge is not for technical reasons, it's a stylistic approach for the kids, they think it's cool. Remove the compression and there is nothing left, just amateurs.
Happy listening, have a nice weekend.
> > Though the CD is magnificent also. < <
Your hypocritical train just derailed ...
Within the limitations of digital magnificent, a good chance for you if you have both format to compare vinyl/digital. I prefer the vinyl for the natural sound of all instruments. Yes buddy, I have bat ears.
No hard feelings however it's not your fault growing up in the digital age.
Rock on !!!
> > No hard feelings however it's not your fault growing up in the digital age. < <
I'm 54, bought my first Yami receiver/turntable at 12, obviously I grew up with ONLY vinyl & tape. In terms of "musicality", well, my father and brother were experienced musical performers. I grew up with piano's, several types of guitars and many wind instruments. I attend at least a dozen concerts annually ... so ... I believe I've developed a pretty firm grasp on the true meaning of "musicality" - from many a perspective.
And on an absolute basis, my vinyl rig is amazingly realistic, using best case software it has trumped 100% of all digital contenders it's ever faced, including a few very serious SACD players.
Therefore ...
I ask: why would I be content listening to my particular CDP 95% of the time, especially considering my long developed musical experience/expectations + having access to a great sounding vinyl rig, always on tap?
A: Because I'm not smoking pot.
B: Because I grew up with CD and therefore drank the coolaid.
C: Because I have human, not bat ears.
D: Because my CDP meets my "analog" based expectations.
(hint: not A or B, or C)
So I have 14 years of additional experience.(that includes 78's)
Uncountable concerts, classical, opera, country, rock and so on, guitar/ piano of myself. There were times even PA systems were almost high fidelity ! Valves !
No gear can compete with live instruments, vocals, you know, I know.
Music must be earpleasing, that's why the orchestra tunes before the gig begins. It's also the difference between crappy amateurs and a good pro band : good tuning of the instruments.
Again, don't lose your sense of humor now : digital is not earpleasing FOR ME.
But convenient I have to admit. Sunday barbecue in the garden with the gettoblaster playing my favorites and favorites of my company.
Nice weekend, lots of happy listening or whatever despite no bat ears.
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