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In Reply to: RE: SACD does make a difference posted by onkobo on February 05, 2015 at 22:05:05
Hmmmm, 10 years ago I owned the Sony SCD-1, Sony's flagship product for promoting their new SACD format.
It wasn't until I replaced it 4 years later that I realized what a sonic POS the SCD-1 was regardless of format.
Moreover, although I can neither confirm nor deny SACD consistent superiority every time, I can confirm that if an SACD recording is an improvement over its PCM counterpart, it's usually marginal.
I've yet to hear any SACD or for that matter any high-rez recording "blows the doors" off its PCM counterpart as some allude to here and elsewhere.
Follow Ups:
An APL custom unit in a Denon chassis which was replaced with
An Esoteric UX-3se which was replaced with
An OPPO BDP-105D
Which factor(s) did you not enjoy about the APL or Esoteric?
We're going back 10 years for APL swap and about 8.5 years for the Esoteric.
What I do recall is that the APL was a significant musical gain over the Sony SCD-1,
the Esoteric after its 275 hours of burn-in was a tremendous improvement over the APL. Far more dynamic was one of the characteristics I still recall.
The initial OPPO swap was a nice overall improvement over the Esoteric. In this case, a more detail and more fluid. I would have been satisfied if for the price it was the Esoteric's equal.
I was more than satisfied. But over time several things occurred that turned the OPPO a tremendous improvement:
1. For the first few months, I only used the OPPO's CD disk drive for music playback. Once I started using the USB ports and a 128gb thumb drive and now an SSD drive (by-passing the CD transport), a very nice musical improvement with greated detail and less distortion.
2. Due to some technologies I employ, I've always had a very dynamic system. However, when I swapped in a 600wpc int. amp to replace a 200wpc int. amp, the dynamics, especially a note's initial attack induced such an electronic jump factor, that was so in-my-face, there was nothing realistic about it whatsoever and in fact took me further from the live performance as it seemed my ears were 1 foot from the instruments for the initial attack and then somewhere in the first 2 rows for the remainder of the note. Very unmusical. So I replaced the int. amp with that mfg'ers 600wpc mono block amps (no preamp) and used the OPPO's passive volume attenuator which utilizes OPPO's 32-bit SABRE DAC's. What a fabulous gain and was near perfect for my new configuration. The dynamics fell back onto the soundstage with the instruments where they below. Because of the 600wpc amps I still have perhaps one of the most dynamic systems you've heard, only now far more realistic with the dynamics occurring up on the soundstage as they should and with a good distance between the instruments and my ears now planted deeper into the audience.
Think of .45 cal. gunshots going off maybe 5 or 6 ft. from your head where you're flinching/jumping with every gunshot. Exciting but when it comes to music there's nothing realistic about it unless your position is next to the instruments on the soundstage. Now imagine those gunshots going off maybe 45 or 50 ft. away from you. Still quite dynamic but now there's a distance.
Moreover, by utilizing the OPPO's passive volume attenuator utilizing the 32-bit SABRE DAC's that supposedly induce little to no signal loss, the music is significantly more pristine, detailed, and delicate. So it seemed that the seemingly lack of signal loss from OPPO's volumene attenuator greatly enhanced the detail and overall music presentation.
3. There's the convenience I also now have using the OPPO as a music server with my iPad mini and an SSD drive.
4. The OPPO's picture quality, especially with the Darbee option is a significant improvement over the Esoteric.
In the end the sonic improvements of the OPPO are quite a leap over the Esoteric.
Frankly, I'm quite surprised by these improvements. I put a lot of emphasis on quality of construction, etc. The Esoteric with its world-renowned VRDS transport, its build contruction and materials used, and its 60 lbs. of heft, I did not think the OPPO could do this well.
I never had any experience with OPPO products prior to this. In fact, if the OPPO did not come with a 30-day satisfaction guarantee, I never would have demo'ed it because all of the reviews I read about it were so-so. Always seeming to compare it to another $1500 CDP like a Marantz and a little better here and a little worse there.
Ahhh, what do they know?
Interesting comments.
I take it you were somewhat dissatisfied with the up-front attack of the Oppo + integrated amp but very happy when using the Oppo direct to a power amp. Do you think the difference is mainly due to the sonic signature of the int amp vs. the power amp, or the use of the Oppo volume control in lieu of a pre-amp?
Also, when playing files from the external drive, are they all CD quality or have you tried higher res?
I'm curious because I am looking for a better way to play my collection of ~150 SACDs and ~50 DVD-As, and I've considered the Oppo 105. But I would be using it as a disc spinner and not using the volume control.
Like you, I have some prior experience with APL and Sony SACD players.
About 6 months ago, I finally sold my APL Philips SACD 1000 that Alex originally modified for me back in ~2003 with his recipe of parallel DACs feeding his own xfmr coupled 6H30 output stage with its dedicated PS. It was a little too liquid/fluid (I like more attack) but the midrange tone was the best I've heard, not greyish like SS can sometimes be or technicolor like valves can sometimes be, just right. I loved the presentation of treble detail on hi-res discs and the soundstage depth was the best I've heard. I regret selling it.
I also purchased an Oppo 103 for HT duty. As a Blu-Ray player it's outstanding. Out of curiosity, I listened to it in my main system via analog outs and it is really mediocre. I also tried connecting it to my Linn Akurate DSM via HDMI to play SACD and DVD-A using the Linn as a DAC and that is much, much better but still not as good as streaming hi-res downloads from my NAS to the Linn. The Oppo 105 analog out would have to be an order of magnitude better than the 103 to be in the same league.
Yes, I have plenty of higher-rez material but the vast majority of my library is Redbook CD.I was very disappointed with the new int. amp at 575wpc. The OPPO was fine with my old BMC C1 int. amp, much like my Esoteric was, only the OPPO being more musical.
Once I was able to extract fabulous new levels of performance from the new int. amp the musicality or sonic characteristics was not the issue by any means. Yes, the new amp was a tad more forward in its soundstaging but no big deal. The cause of this overwhelming electronics induced jump factor was limited almost solely to the excessive watts per channel.
Partially because of other technologies I employ at the components that among other things makes my system extremely dynamic. Well, if you combine an already extremely dynamic system (now with a slightly forward soundstage) plus with an amp that's now kicking out potentially 3 times the power of my previous BMC, that became a big problem with the dynamics of initial attacks so in-my-face and sooooo unnatural. Plus my listening volume ranges can range from say 84db to 105db depending on the music.
My APL was the newer more custom version of your's, which I think was the Denon 3809?? at about $5000. Yes, it was significantly more musical than the $5000 Sony SCD-1. But then again, a $600 Marantz or $250 OPPO was probably significantly more musical than the SCD-1.
Two things about the APL.
1) Although it was a good performer, I became convinced there was a lot of brainwashing going on about just how fabulous Alex was and his APL products were. A group of guys I was with at THE Show 2006 who all had fairly to well-trained ears (more than me) were listening to my own APL unit being used in nuforce's exhibiting room and we were comparing it to a $2000 Marantz unit that nuforce brought with them. I thought the Marantz was every bit as good as the APL and darn near identical. After hours of A/B comparisons, the group went their separate ways. I confirmed what I heard with my very savvy buddy who's an APL nut (and owns APL's $35k Esoteric unit even now) and posesses very well-trained ears. He said, yes, except he thought my APL unit had just a tad more definition in the bass. I'm thinking, what the frick? All this hoopla over APL products and it sounds near identical to a $2k off-the-shelf Marantz?
2) I had already grown to greatly dislike Alex, who IMO is a bad seed. Between that and the so-so performance and I started looking for a replacement. That APL unit wasn't even in the same league as my $9k Esoteric CDP. I also vowed never to deal with custom modders again simply because product support boils down to one busy and potentially flaky modder. So I apply risk mgmt there.
Back to the APL's performance. To confirm or solidify my thoughts on the APL's performance, my buddy who's now owned the $35k APL for about 5 years and lives 2500 miles away so it's not like we get to hear each others' systems. When I was exhibiting in Newport Beach in 2011, he joined me there and with my humble system and my product only operating at maybe 3 - 5% of its full potential (my product takes weeks and months to advance in performance), my buddy's listening to his music and in particular Miles Davis Kind of Blue and he said it was the best mid-range he'd yet heard.
I also had a local friend with the same APL Denon 3809 model as mine and he too purchased the Esoteric UX-3SE to replace it.
Audio's a funny, odd business. I suspect there's a lot of this mind-over-matter type situations like this one, even with some very smart fellers, and ever since that experience I try to stay far away from all of them if/when I can spot them. I've learned my lesson and it wasn't cheap. Besides, I can extract levels of performance these custom modders couldn't even begin to approach, and I never even have to pop the top.
I also realized that my buddy who was and remains very knowledgeable about live and reproduced music and the industry in general, was in the end, not much different from many and was potentially just as gullible.
Oh, well. Live and learn.
Edits: 02/14/15
FWIW, I generally agree with you regarding Alex. I had no trouble with him and he turned around my unit in ~2 months, but I think I got lucky because I was one of the earliest customers of his signature tube mods, before his mods started getting a lot of attention. But I read all the horror stories from people he took a deposit from and then ignored for a year or more. He over-committed himself in general and gave unfair preferential treatment to higher paying customers of his latest and most expensive gear and to people who supported him on internet forums. And then he left a lot of customers hanging when he moved back to Bulgaria (or got deported - not sure which) and it took him a long time to catch up with people afterwards. I would not risk giving him my money again.
I also agree that his stuff was over-hyped. It wasn't head and shoulders over everything else, but it did really excel in some areas.
My problem now is that I've settled on network streaming for most of my listening, my preferred player doesn't spin discs or handle DSD, and I don't have a good solution for the SACDs that have been gathering dust of late. Maybe I should get a refurbished PS3 and rip them all.
Thanks! for sharing -Dave.
Dave_K, you're way too kind about Alex' lack of integrity and his gear's performance. :)
Why not try the OPPO BDR-105D just for the heck of it? It comes with a 30-day satisfaction guarantee and maybe you can ask them for an extension on the 30-days (as I did).
I see you're already using a passive volume attenuator and you may continue doing so with the OPPO.
All you need to round things out is an iPad Mini so you can download OPPO's app to use it as a remote control and an SSD drive. All of this for about $1700.
I can all but guarantee it will not disappoint.
Second note;
then there are guys like APL that tackle digital components like cd/dvd spinners.
Very informative and detailed -Stehno. We need "modders" as the companies that build audio gear, cuts most corners to make a profit. One of my fave examples is Conrad Johnson. Take one of their pre-amps that does not contain the teflon caps and compare to the same model w/ the teflon caps. This is only one sample.
Is APL still operational?
No doubt about it...
-RW-
A very fine observation Stehno. Many Thanks!
which spinner replaced the Sony?
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