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I prefer top loading CD players for simplicity, reliability, and easy cleaning and I'm now thinking of upgrading to a better top loading machine. My question is, do the relatively expensive belt-drive/top-loading machines made by CEC offer substantial performance gains over more conventionally driven players?
Edits: 01/13/15Follow Ups:
From someone who is a skeptic about most things audiophile, I think CEC is the real deal. More importantly than the list new price is the used price. And the used price of CEC's is very solid.
Similar to analog, the CEC's have a "sound quality" that is appreciated over time. Once your ears get accustomed to it, it's hard to go back to more digital (pixelated, precise) sounding equipment. But I am sure there are lots of people that like that kind of presentation, so to say one is better than the other is not helpful.
The words best and better are way over used in any audio forum and deters from useful dialogue.
I concur Lokie- CEC is the real deal.
Who says the belt drive CEC offers 'substantial performance gains over more conventionally driven players?' The CEC marketing machine? ;-)
If performance gains were indeed 'substantial' I'm sure more audiophiles would own belt drive players and transports.
That is what the question is. Is a belt drive worth more in $$$$$$ than conventional? I do believe a top load is a better transport/player than a front load. No drawer mechanism. But is belt drive worth the extra $$$$$$. I think so but I own a CEC TL 2 and unless I get old and forget how to use it I will always own a belt drive. Not that there is much to forget. Open top drawer, drop in CD, put weight on top of CD, and play! I bought a belt drive for just the reason of its abilities. Not that it's any better than conventional but in theory it should be.
What I did own before was the CEC TL1 and the TL0 and after using the TL 2 and seeing that the benefits(supposedly) of the TL1 and the TL0 was nonexistent I sold the more expensive transports and kept the TL 2 not missing a thing. Even the Parasound belt drive was as good. Other CEC owners might argue but to my ears the extra $$$$$$$$ to own then wasn't practical.
Or, so it is claimed.A weighted puck on top of the CD adds mass and helps balance and stabilize the rotating disc.
Edits: 01/13/15
From the analog world: For decades I used belt drive turntables. I read that there is a portion of the cycle where the belt is not actually functioning. I thought it was BS. A couple of years ago I bought a Garrard Idle drive, and I am not looking back. Now I agree with that statement, the flow of the music is just head over heels when compared to an LPP12.
So the short answer is I would guess NO!
I suspect the difference would not be an improvement because a laser beam has no drag.
Dave
Correct Dave-
the laser beam must track as well.
I am not going into the belt drive, direct drive, idler drive argument. That's for those with nothing better to do.
But the way your belt drive TT was working was actually the proper way. You really don't want a total and full contact with whatever belt you choose to use, at least with a TT. As a matter of fact, the ungodly expensive TT by Lloyd Walker cannot start on its own just turning on the motor drive. The belt is so loose that the pulley on the motor will just turn and the platter alone is ultra heavy(about 50lbs.). All it is there for is to keep the momentum going once you push the platter as a start. With the motor turning you can actually hold the platter still and the motor will just spin without any really loss to the RPM's of the motor. It gives very gently shoves to the very heavy platter to keep the speed dead on. There is almost no resistance at all on the platter once the air is applied to the bearing. With no belt you can give the platter a small turn and it will spin on its own for about five minutes with minimal speed loss. The weight of the platter forms enough inertia to just need very light touches to keep the speed constant. Only issue with that system is that each time you shut it down and then turn it on you have to readjust the speed for a while until you get it right. But once you get it right it is golden. It's almost like nothing is turning the platter.
'I am not going into the belt drive, direct drive, idler drive argument'
The Nottingham low torque approach is the opposite of a high torque idler or direct drive. This approach prioritizes the minimizing of vibrations from the motor to the record surface> signal path, and that can be measured. What I learned/realized when listening to a high torque system like Garrard 301/401 idlers is that there is some resistance being put forth by the grooves countour and pushing the transducer through it makes a huge difference- the timing and 'continuity of the tones/notes is completely retrieved, the intention, emphasis, touch, rhythmic and pulse information is unlike what I heard from belt drives. That is where the music is to my ears. True they are not as quiet, but that is a trade off I am happy to make. D yourself a favor and go listen to a Shindo or even a Loricraft restored Garrard, for me there was no turning back.
Hi,
I actually do have a Thorens 124MkI totally redone by Jim Campbell. After listening to it I too have come to the conclusion that I like idler drive more but that's not to say it is better than something else. I just like it better. I was just commenting on the fact of a belt drive done properly(as in the Walker TT)in reality nothing of any consequence even comes near the platter. It's almost as if it were turning on its own. How he was able to accomplish that is beyond me. It definitely has something to do with the weight of the platter and the fact that it is air bearing.
Total marketing BS. Which doesn't mean a belt-driven transport can't be good.
They may be good transports but I wonder if that has to do with just good design rather than belt drive. Belt drive makes sense on a constant speed turn table. It makes less sense on a drive which is continually slowing down from start to end.
Both- excellent design and an excellent transport. A transport is only as good as the DAC connected to it.
that wasn't my point. I assume it's well designed or it wouldn't get good reviews. I only questioned if belt drive was worth it or even made it more difficult to get good performance since, unlike a turn table, the rotation of a CD is not constant like a turn table but slowing as the CD plays. In a turntable the RPM is constant but the linear speed drops. Foe a CD the linear tracking speed is constant but the RPMs constantly slow.
I am not all that great with digital knowledge but your statement
"A transport is only as good as the DAC connected to it." is totally false.
A great DAC(whatever you consider that to be) will definitely not be up to it fullest potential without a really good transport whereas a really good transport could operate to its fullest potential no matter what DAC is connected to it. It just won't sound as good because the DAC will then not be there to its fullest. A bad or weak transport will affect a DAC but a DAC won't affect the transport. It will affect the sound.
I wonder if the original Memory Player doesn't significantly affect the importance of the transport since it downloads everything to solid state memory and then plays from there.
I have no idea what that is. I am not into digital at all. I like analogue better.
I once had a CEC TL-2 transport..... Wasn't impressed with it at all.........
The actual operation of a belt drive is not up to what the actual theories about them are. In theory they are supposed to be better just as when the belt drive turntable arrived on the analogue scene. Were they better than direct drive? That's still one of the great wonders of the world today.
I do know I owned a few CEC transports and I loved them. Better than others? In my eyes and to my ears, yes!
As a consumer one cannot separate for assessment the mechanical drive system in a CD transport mech from the other components it has e.g. the focus mechanism, EF demodulator etc.
So the question about belt drive is not possible to answer. However CEC do make excellent transports. Whether this is ultimately due to the belt drive cannot be isolated. Perhaps it is just CEC's USP. Other fine transport mechs are also available (albeit with fewer choices these days). Mostly they ain't cheap either.
+1 regarding inability to distinguish belt from other drive technologies.
Having said that, the CEC TL51XR and TL2 (? - can't remember) sounded exceptionally good. Their 3300, which was not direct drive but also "cheaper" was not nearly as distinguished.
Whether it's the belt drive or their execution of a particular design, I'd endorse purchase of a CEC if you want a disc transport. I had the TL2 and liked it - perhaps it was a step up from the TL51XR but I sold it because I lacked the real estate to keep it with a house that shrank as my family got bigger. :-)
Thanks! for sharing muser.
The CEC deals with one main issue that even the Parasound belt drive didn't. CEC only made the drive mechanism. The rest of the transport was made by some other company.
The issue that CEC dealt with along with their drive mechanism was the weight of the player which at one time was important. They are built like tanks to absorb any vibrations that can be induced. Even their lower line was much heavier than players and transports out there.
old radio joke
E
T
Hard to know if the sounds quality of the CEC transports are inherently due to their belt drive mechanism or a combination of all the transport's systems. The only other belt-drive transport of which I know was the Forsell unit, if I'm not mistaken. That had an air bearing too.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Yes, CEC 's claim to fame has always been the quality of their transports.
These guys have been around for a long time now. I do not see them going away in the short-term.
NO.
However, I'll never find out. All my CDs have been ripped to a hard drive.
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