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In Reply to: RE: Who says ordinary cpmputer audio sounds better than a cd player? posted by fmak on August 31, 2014 at 09:23:50
I guess I don't understand your A-B setup. Are you saying the Sony CDP sounds better using its own internal DAC compared to your computer's motherboard's built-in DAC chip?
Follow Ups:
Yes to your question.
And blamed the computer audio. I can not remember that I have ever seen anyone who claimed that built-in computer analog output is as good as CD player, CDP+DAC, or Computer+DAC.
The whole purpose of using computer is to use it as a "transport" to feed a DAC.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
Actually, the question was confusing in that there were two questions, one in the title and the other in the text with the meaning of a "yes" or "no" answer going in opposite directions. This makes a simple "yes" answer useless due to ambiguity.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I misunderstood confusing and ambiguous answer, as well as fmac's initial post. If he used the same DAC and hears so much difference toward worse, there must be some major f...-up with the setup.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
irrational post and quite stale
To summarize:
You f.. up original posts on this subject so that no one knows what you really compared.
You f.. up when you did not respond to my request to clarify what you are doing, that would really bring this conversation to the point.
You f.. up the response to Jon L'a very simple question .
You f.. up the response to my posts by calling them stale which is attempt attack me personally for my moniker.
That is on top of the actual f.. up in setting up your system, one way or the other.
I could think of a few more uses for the phrase f.. up when your post are concerned, but will refrain myself.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
and f-uped response
If you use the same DAC with two different inputs, then the reality is you are not using the same DAC. It's not the same as "apples vs. oranges" but there are different types of oranges.
The various inputs on my Mytek DAC sound different. (But then this is just my cheap "mid fi" DAC, not some kind of quality product such as a "serious" audiophile might own.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
You maybe are being a bit sarcastic, but you are not far off from the truth. The MyTek is indeed MidFi at best. If you don't need the volume control, the filters, and the other "pro" features it is competitive with $700 DACs.
Just once, take the time to compare it to DACs in the $3000 range you will regret owning the MyTek.
Lastly, if a DAC sounds drastically different input to input, then I question the competency of the designer. The source should be far more of an influence then the inherent quality of the input.
The Mytek is somewhat quirky. Its weakest point is the high output levels, but these are fixed by changing the jumpers for the IV resistors. The next weakest feature is the use of the stock filters that come with the SABRE chip, particularly when playing at 44.1 kHz, but all of the filter issues go away when operating at DSD128. Next comes the OP amps that buffer the IV circuit and also include the analog volume control. Since I have removed the first two problems (by changing jumpers and converting to DSD128 in my computer) this is the main issue that I have with the DAC. The first step is to avoid using the analog volume control. There is a bypass relay which takes this out of the circuit when you use the digital volume control. This eliminates most of the euphonic mid-fi distortion. There is another bonus, which is that the remaining op-amps are now being driven at a lower level and they are much more linear. The downside of this is that one loses bits of digital resolution and there is more noise. However, the SABRE chip is a 32 bit DAC and I run it around -6 to -22 dB for most playback, hence I am not losing any digital resolution, nor am I losing much noise from the DAC chip which is at -129 dB. The gain staging in my system (which uses active speakers driven at balanced pro audio levels) is such that I can not hear any sound out of any of the drivers, even if I hold my ear right up to them, regardless of volume control setting (when playing 24 bit files that have digital black or dither noise).The Mytek is a Swiss Army knife of features and has a difficult user interface that is not understandable by inmates who are computer challenged and who stubbornly refuse to RTFM. It was quite competitive at the time I purchased it. However, I doubt very much that I would enjoy much better sounding music were I to replace it, or at least, this would be about the last part of my system that I would plan to upgrade.
In general, if I had $5000 to blow, it would be on purchasing more recordings... That is about as far as I would go in any event. It makes no sense to spend more money on a DAC then was spent on the ADC that captured the original analog signal. And as to those expensive front panels, these are for those laggards who haven't figured out that life is not about having more and shinier stuff than one's neighbors. I am not in the least bit interested in Veblen goods.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Edits: 09/03/14
You can continue to go by your own belief system, but repeating it over and over does not make it so. I understand the audiophile ostrich mentality, because finding out there something better than you own, for not that much more, can be a pain.The MyTek user interface is not that big of deal to figure out. It took me all of 15 minutes. I was lazy about adjusting the jumpers, which I did a while ago. Programming a Cable DVR is more complicated than the MyTek.
You doubt you can do better, but have not done any active comparisons to speak of, so it conveniently fits into the story you tell yourself.
Your logic in that why buy a DAC costing more than the the ADC used during the recording/conversion process is crazy. Most of the best, most celebrated recordings of our time were done with cables, outboard gear, and monitors that cost less than the average audiophile interconnect today.
With that line of thinking you could say there was no such thing as power conditioning in studios, so why bother using it today? Flawed logic.
And I assure you not all DACs costing more than the MyTek are equipped with useless thick faceplates. Most of the products in the $3000-$4000 range have functional casework that does not rattle (unlike the MyTek,lol) and front panels that are also functional. There is not enough margin for audio jewelry there. For that, see MSB, dCS, Berkeley, Briscasti, Chord, Light Harmonic etc, and they are priced accordingly.
Listen to the mid line Naim DAC and the MyTek side by side. It's like two totally different recordings being played. Everything starts with the source.
Edits: 09/03/14
tell what something will sound like.
There are many different elements, beyond just the DAC (or DACs), that go into making up the final sound of the product. The quality of the power supply, what type and if the damping materials, quality of connectors, case, etc.
Just like redbook CD players, it's not just the digital to analog conversion process that matters. It's impossible to tell that the mid-fi NAD cd player sounds like a lo-fi CD player as opposed to the mid-fi Arcam CD 92 sounds like a high end player without listening to them to compare.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
...and that being said, I find it hilarious when folks obsess and making purchasing decisions based on DAC chips and other components that are but one element of the final product.
Sordidman,
I completely agree with your contention that you need to listen to a disc player. Some of the folks at AVS have castigated me for claiming that I prefer analog stereo from my Ayre C-5xeMP to that from my Oppo BDP-105. They claim I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a double blind test. One guy claims all you need is a transport and a $2 DAC; after that, they're all the same.
I believe my perception, not their claims.
db
with your excellent AYRE player, as well as the OPPO.
I find it ironic that the same people who (don't listen) and then make the general claim that transports don't matter: turn around a minute later and say that the OPPO and the Ayre use the same transport and therefore sound the same.
CH of Ayre of pointed out that he looked at the ESOTERIC transport: and found it to be cost prohibitive given the level of what he wanted to achieve with the other internal components of the player.
It takes less than two seconds, (when listening through good downstream components), to know that the Ayre is TONS better sounding than the Oppo.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
there is no single answer for adjusting/not adjusting them.
In the default setting, the output is screaming loud.
I too am confused still what fmak said "yes" to..
Since his Sony DVPS 7000 only has spdif output but no digital input, I am assuming he is comparing the Sony DVPS 7000 analogue output to computer motherboard's analogue output.
''Are you saying the Sony CDP sounds better using its own internal DAC compared to your computer's motherboard's built-in DAC chip?''
Yes means yes to your question. You posed, I replied, what's the problem.
He is rarely clear in his writing so it is often not possible to understand what he is saying. Others have called his posts 'cryptic'. He's gotten better over the years. Some used to call his criticisms one-liner 'hit and run' posts.
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