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Hello,
I am interested in a DAC that has selectable filtering in order to tame the brightness and/or harshness of certain CD recordings. The ability to select the filter via remote control isn't essential but certainly wanted for convenience.
For the most part, I thoroughly enjoy listening to CDs. When they've been recorded and mastered well the sound is excellent, approaching the sound I get while listening to record albums. And for the majority (3/4?) of my CDs the sound quality, while not always excellent, is very listenable. The enjoyment factor diminishes rapidly though for CDs that were not recorded or mastered with any skill or caring for sound quality. For those CDs I'd like to be able to apply a filter that removes some of the brightness and harshness so that it's at least listenable.
For those of you familiar with low output moving coil cartridges, it would be something similar to damping the cartridge using selectable resistance settings. I use two turntables and phono stages to accomplish this - one table is set up to play the majority of albums that were done well and another turntable for the albums that weren't. But I don't really want to invest in two CD playback systems (CDP & DAC) in order to have that flexibility. One CDP, one DAC.
I acknowledge the probable loss of resolution, dynamics, articulation, etc., etc. in using a filter to tame a harsh recording but I accept the "degradation" in playback in order to enjoy listening to it.
Does anyone know of a DAC with selectable filtering that functions like a digital tone control? And if so, do you have any experience (and an opinion) on how well it works?
Regard,
Tom
Follow Ups:
My Arcam DAC has two selectable filters.From the owner's manual:
Filter selection
Oversampled digital-to-analogue conversion uses
digital filtering to process the signal. The D33 uses
custom processing to provide two different digital
filters, allowing the conversion process to be optimised
to personal preference and listening material. Use the
fi lter button on the remote control or front panel to
toggle between the two filter options.The filters can be toggled with the remote control. But, there is a momentary interruption in the music when the filter is changed.
Edit: I do find that Filter 2 seems to rolloff a bit of brightness, the difference is quite subtle. I've tried without a filter, with filter 1 and now leave it set on filter 2 and don't play with it anymore.
Edits: 08/01/14 08/01/14 08/01/14
Hi, Stephen,
I read that stereophile review and was interested in knowing more about the filtering effects, but the asking price is more than I want to spend. From Mr. Atkinson's review (and your comments) I would think it's a nice sounding DAC; thanks for the suggestion.
Regards,
Tom
I have seen the Arcam used for about half the retail price, but you haven't mentioned your budget. I would have bought the Bryston BDA-1 except for the limit on the USB input to 16/14.4. The new BDA-2 can do 24/192.Meaning that a used BDA-1 could be found for a bit over $1K. It doesn't have filters, but has a wonderful sound from the chip set. Not many people do the analog section as well as Bryston.
Edits: 08/02/14
I didn't mention budget and should have. I'd like to keep it around $1500 if possible. A used DAC makes sense; there's not much that can get abused other than connections. I'm thinking that I might start looking for a used FMJ D33.
The irony is that I purchased a Rega Apollo years back and one of the criticisms of the unit was that it didn't have digital output. At the time I had no interest in DACs so it wasn't even a consideration. I've been really enjoying the Apollo through a tube buffer preamp. But now that I'm looking at using a DAC to help with bad CD recordings/mastering I'll have to consider another CDP as a transport for the DAC. It never ends. :-)Note: The constructive criticism of the Rega Apollo was that it didn't have a digital INPUT so it could be used as a CDP/DAC combo. TK
Edits: 08/04/14 08/12/14
Tom
Hey tketcham, what year was your Apollo manufactured ?. I have the Apollo & it definitely has a digital out (used it for a DAC I was considering).
Hi, 701,
I'm really glad you caught that! For some reason I was thinking that the early interation of the Apollo lacked a digital out. I shall correct the erroneous post I made and start looking for a used DAC.
Thanks!
Tom
The Luxman DA-06 DAC ($5000 USD MSRP) is inherently smooth and a bit on the warm and rich side vs some others I've owned. If 'smooth' is one of your top priorities, I would consider the DA-06. You can choose PCM filter settings and DSD filter settings via front panel buttons and display, but there is no remote.
If you Google search: Luxman DA-06 Review you will find a handful of them describing what I heard in mine.
Hi, Abe,
It seems to be a trueism (at least in reading about DACs) that "you get what you pay for". The most favorable reviews regarding a noticeably "smooth" and "natural" sound are based on the more expensive DACs. I'm looking for a suggestion of those traits for around $1500, and if Luxman does what I've seen it do with other components, it will offer a less expensive unit (fewer features) with a similar sound. Hopefully. :-)
Regards,
Tom
I wouldn't give up on more affordable DACs. I still think the PS Audio NuWave DAC is a stellar performer in 'native mode' (no over sampling). They LIST for $1000 and go for about $700 - $800.
I sold the Luxman a couple weeks ago and I honestly don't miss it.
Another very smooth DAC is the Wavelength Brick series with vacuum tube, but I thought it was a little veiled, rolled off, and dynamically soft. I had the Brick DAC v3.
Perhaps another solution worth looking at is an inexpensive tube buffer (Yaquin) with appropriate tubes to tame that harshness. You will need to get input from the tube guy's perhaps if not familiar with whats available. You then have a choice via switching from the pre amp or a input selector what sound gets sent to your amplifier.
Good suggestion, 701! That's why I use an Eastern Electric Mini-max BBA tube buffer pre-amp between my CDP and integrated amp. :-)The BBA buffer adds a nice hint of tube distortion that turns a sterile digital signal into something quite listenable. But it won't cure a poorly recorded and mastered CD; thus my interest in seeing if there's another step that can be taken to further distort (or attenuate) the brittleness remaining with some CDs.
Regards,
TomPS: If the Yaqin buffer offers even half of what the BBA provides, it's a bargain.
Edits: 08/01/14 08/01/14
nt
Tom,
Not wanting to promote my own gear, but there are options in pretty much all of it.
What you should try to have an audition is a DAC that does not use digital filters (either option to switch out or non to start with).
I find that even with the frequency response mostly brought back to flat, these kind of DAC's do not usually have that "bright" sound.
I pretty much listen digital filter-less since the late 90's and nowadays even my TV sound is "no digital filter".
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
Hi, T,
The CD player that I'm using has it's own DAC circuitry so I don't have a stand-alone DAC right now. But I've been reading about digital filtering and thought perhaps it might be useful in mellowing the brittleness of some CD releases I have. But your comment is valuable in that when I do purchase a DAC unit I will look for one that has the option of no filtering.
Thanks for the post!
Regards,
Tom
The Resonessence Concero HD also has a choice of two filters and an off setting, there is a subtle differnce between the two filters, and off is brighter. I can hear the difference between the three settings on my system (jungson 200w integrated and Totem Foreset speakers).
Hi, dgently,
That Concero HD is an interesting DAC, with several different configurations to work with. And the price is reasonable. I thought this was going to be fairly easy, with just a few examples to consider. I can see that there's much more to the selectable filter, uh, selection. :-)Regards,
Tom
Edits: 07/29/14
I own a PS Audio PWD II. You can control phase, volume, filters (5 different), upsampling or native rates etc etc from the remote.I generally do not change settings much, my preferred setup (Native, in-phase, filter 5) generally sounds best with most recordings.
I do reevaluate my settings after updating to the latest firmware because that has a surprisingly large effect on overall sound quality. The current firmware (4.5) is the best yet IMHO.
i should add that the differences in SQ that result from different filters, upsampling rates (or non-upsampling which I prefer) is fairly small, smaller than the differences with cartridge loading and VTA adjustments for example.
Edits: 07/28/14
Thanks for the post. I wondered about the range of effects from the filtering. Subtle could be significant when it comes to CD brittleness, but nothing can fix a bad recording/mastering. Perhaps I'll get a chance to hear one of these units (or something similar) the next time I'm visiting a big city with a stereo shop.
Regards,
Tom
See in the review below, for instance - I'm sure you can download manual, too.
That looks like what I'm after. Too bad it's about $2000 more than I'd like to spend.I guess I should have done a better job of searching the web for DACs with selectable filters. I just did a quick search and there are other offerings that have similar features at a lower price. I looked a while back and there wasn't much out there; things seem to be changing rapidly as consumers figure out what they want in a full-featured DAC. (And as the technology matures as well.)
One thing that I noticed (then and now) is many of the full-featured DACs are also pre-amps, which isn't something I'm interested in and why I posted the question. I wasn't finding stand-alone DAC units with selectable filters. But now I see I'll have to do some more searching.
Thanks for the link.
Regards,
Tom
Edits: 07/29/14
I too use equipment with several selectable digital filters and various sample rate conversion options (dCS).
As other respondents have mentioned the effect can be quite subtle.
Given the problem you have stated (harsh CDs) I don't think that variable digital filters will be a solution. They do not have audible effects similar to selectable analogue filters ( as found, for example,on old style Quad amplifiers). You are more likely to find the result is that the CDs still sound harsh but in slightly different ways depending upon the filter selected.
Hi, PAR,
I'm starting to realize that digital filtering is probably not going to have quite the effect I was hoping for. It may be worth a try, though. Won't really know otherwise.
Thanks for the post.
Regards,
Tom
I agree.
If the problem is excessively bright recordings or excessively bright speaker / room setup then it's not going to be fixed by switching DAC filters. One will get better results by speaker / room setup or by high frequency roll off (e.g. tone controls). I found that a roll-off of -3.5 dB at 10 kHz fixed the problem of too bright recordings without making other recordings sound too dull, in other words this was a "set and forget" type of move, not something that has to be changed from recording to recording like the volume control or absolute phase.
If one wants to play with CD filters then I suggest a computer audio system, where you can try many different filters at low or no cost.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Hi, Tony,
The acoustics of the room (and speaker placement) is as good as I've ever heard given the stereos I've owned and the rooms I've had to work with. For the money, it sounds very good.
As I mentioned to PAR, I thought that digital filtering might solve some of the brittleness that comes through with certain CDs. But it may not be the solution I was hoping for. Your idea of tone control is a possibility as long as it doesn't affect the majority of CDs that do sound good. If it was switchable via remote I'd consider it.
I'd rather not delve into computer-based sound processing. I've been dealing with the hassles of PCs for a long time, both at work and my personal computer. It's a personal problem I know, but I don't want to mix PC processing with my stereo setup. :-)
Based on what I'm learning from this thread (and further reading of other sources) I may be better off with some type of switchable DSP, if such a thing exists. DSP is typically used to solve or enhance the interactions of stereo and room acoustics but I don't see why it couldn't also be used to enhance the sound from specific stereo components and recordings. It would allow adjustments in specific frequencies associated with the brittleness and harshness of some CDs. It might also provide a certain amount of "fuzziness" to mimic the effect of heavy tube-based euphonics.
But now I'm dreaming up stereo devices that don't exist or are prohibitively expensive. Back to reality...
Regards,
Tom
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