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Background:
I'm in the UK, I have a good valve based system, I like accoustic music (classical, folk, jazz) and some rock, with a special love for good female vocals (currently drooling over Cassandra Wilson, Blue Light til Dawn 180g LP). I mainly use LP, with a lovely front end (Teres, Moerch DP8, Zyx 4D, and a valve phono stage which betters an Aesthetix Rhea).
My present CD player is an Astin Trew AT3500+, which is a good player; very civilised, truly excellent vocals, no digital nasties.
Now the meat.
I heard an Aesthetix Romulus CD player and did a head to head with the AT3500.
It's the first time I've heard anything better than the AT, and it was quite a lot better. Vocals were equally smooth but also a bit more detailed and transparent; but also, a lot more music, more going on, nice rhythm and pace, highly musical. 'Like a different CD playing' was how one listener commented.
An ideal thing for me then; BUT it simply does not fit into my unit, being very deep. No way to make it fit, and changing the unit isn't an option.
But I'm still considering an upgrade; and I want something to play downloads at some future time.
Next:
So I looked around for something equivalent that would fit.
In the process I found about the MSB Analog DAC, with some very interesting posts here!
It seems that this device may in fact be better than the Romulus; and also, it seems that its character should suit a vinyl junkie like me.
Concerns:
First I must have a demo (at home, I hope) to be sure. Some 'smooth' devices get this character by rolling off the top a bit ... I don't want that, and need to check the MSB isn't like that.
Next, I wonder what else I should check out, eg Luxman DA-06? Others?
Of course it gets impossible/confusing to try to listen to all contenders!
Next, if I go for MSB with the better power supply, it's quite a bit of money; even more if I later get their transport. At this higher budget, again I wonder if I could do better.
Integrated players are acceptable but I tend to favour a separate DAC as it's less problem if the CD drive fails ....
Any comments welcomed.
Follow Ups:
I have the MSB Analog DAC on home demo and I am highly impressed.
The improvement over the AT3500+ is substantial; and I think I'm hearing more improvement from this than from the Romulus.
Vocals have extra subtleties, extra nuances, slightly more tonality, a bit more fluidity. Now the AT does these things well! So to improve on it is a big result. Note, not a trace of harshness of any kind. Very real and compelling ... I should cut out this rubbish and just say *gorgeous*, compelling.
Musically there is a lot more there; better rhythms, better bass, fine flow to the music, fine tonality. Alison Balsom's trumpet is sounding very good (the Cd was a gift). On the AT3500 it was not great, far inferior to LP (I have a good LP setup); unplayable to me. Via the MSB it's still not quite as good as LP, but its' fine, playable.
Air and atmosphere .... WOW! No more to say here.
There is more 'bite' to things; Hollie Smith's CD features violin heavily on one song. It has more 'bite', more drama, more solidity ... but not harsh.
The amount of 'information' has gone up substantially; extra musical phrases; some indistict words now become defined. I am hearing more detail and resolution, AND it's presented smoothly and in an 'analogue' way. That's a class act! Some units can give detail but you get hardness; some units can give smoothness but it's done by cutting the detail; to get all of detail, transparency AND smoothness together is special. Myself, I have only heard that before from valves and vinyl ....
So; I can hear the good things that the various reviews mention; the glowing reviews are *correct*, it is something very special.
I'm getting one ....
Let the dust settle a bit with the different techonologies.
Keep in mind that the quality of the source component IS still important with external DACs. The fact that an Aesthetix player sounded better is not just down to the DAC but also the entire design. The MSB might sound completely different.
There are so many DACs coming out now in the 3-5,000 (pound, euro or dollar) range, I wouldn't be an early adopter at those prices. Some of the older used DACs will do a perfectly fine job with downloads if you get a USB to SPDIF bridge, etc.
The MSB is promising but without listening to it in your system, it's hard to tell if it would be a match or you would like it.
If you want to be conservative you can stick with Arcam or Naim products, they are good sounding and flexible and there's a chance of prompt aftermarket service if necessary, etc.
I listen to a Marantz CD67 OSE from like 1997 and I find it mostly completely adequate in terms of overall musicality. Digital is still hard to get right, especially whenb the standard keeps changing and the goalposts keep moving.
Good thoughts as ever here, thanks.
Don't forget, I'm aiming high here.
I've heard several Naim CD players and (though far more expensive than the AT3500) they jus don't do vocals anywhere nearly as good! OK, they do other things, Naim fans like them for that; but vocals are poor by comparison (and a naim fan admits this).
I am trying the MSB at home and I absolutely *love* it - more about this in other posts soon.
Thanks!
FYI
Thanks! for sharing Mike C.
I have always wanted to audition the Austin Tew. I concur, that you will be hard-pressed to find a better player than the Aesthetix Romulus.
Equally good for CD only ( no DAC) would be the newest Parasound.
By all means see if you can audition a MYDAC from Musical Surroundings. There was a review in TAS for Feb IIRC. It is the only DAC I know of that has a patent pending for its processing. Read the review for an explanation of the system devised to retain the low level signals.
IMHE, it is the most analog like DAC I have heard for a reasonable price, say up to $3K. Nothing leaps out at you, the highs are smooth and detailed, and the whole presentation is like a good TT rig.
Mike Yee, the SF designer, is an analog man (I've been to his home) and he designs the Musical Surroundings Phonomena units, all great buys for the money (TAS 5 star recommended phono section for under $1.5K). He has turned his ideas on phon sections into a superb DAC. Right now its under the radar for most, but I believe it is a superb unit. BTW Mike plays classical guitar so they do come out really nicely.
I have a prototype 32 bit DAC board and it kills.
Of Course YMMV
> IMHE, it is the most analog like DAC I have heard for a reasonable price, say up to $3K.
> Nothing leaps out at you, the highs are smooth and detailed, and the whole presentation is like a good TT rig.
It would be nice if DACs like that would have a selector to switch between "analog" and "accurate" in order to cope with pure digital recordings compared to those already made from an analog source. The 24/96 recordings I make from vinyl sound perfectly analog to me when using an "accurate" DAC. On the other hand, they sound a bit too soft and mushy when using an "analog" sounding DAC.
Best regards,
John Elison
When you say "analog sounding" DAC do you mean the filter characteristic? As in minimum phase?
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
With your talk of how much you enjoy your analog rig, I think you might also consider
taking a listen to a Metrum Hex NOS DAC.
There is an excellent review of the Hex on the 6moons website. The thing I enjoy most about this DAC is the way it handles the attack & decay of notes. I listen to acoustic based
music (mostly classical) almost exclusively.
I had'nt listened to LPs for several years, & one of the earliest impressions of listening to music through this DAC is how much closer to the way instruments & voices to how they sound in Analog, I've often wondered how much time designers of digital equipment spend
listening to Analog music ,as most seem to disregard or consider certain characteristics
of "live" music to be unimportant.
I don't know what the tradeoffs in design may have been, (& honestly don't care), but this may be one of the best choices of a DAC you can make if you spend most of your time
listening to acoustic music.
Hi,
It's always hard to act on every suggestion (no matter how good!). I did look up this unit and it seems very promising with several strong recommendations here.
I bore that in mind to try, but I have tried the MSB first. And that's it, so good and so to my taste that I'm going for this.
Which doesn't mean that I dismiss your suggestions!
Thanks and best regards.
How much does it cost?
Where can I buy it?
I've looked and looked and can't seem to find answers to either one of these questions.
Thanks,
John Elison
Hifi Heaven might still be the exclusive US distributor of this DAC..
The price has come down a bit to a little under $3100. I'm kind of surprised I don't see
more talk about this DAC. My only guess is that there are a lot of listeners who don't see
the "leading edge" impact heard on most recordings as a flaw. I was a little surprised to
find out this was'nt necessarily how the music was recorded, but how most DACs present the
music.
As I've said before, if you really prefer a more Analogue perspective of acoustic based music
this DAC may fit the bill. I purposely avoid listening to much "popular" music due to the
aggressive sound perspective the producers choose for the recording.
Thanks for the information. I prefer accuracy in a DAC because I listen to digital copies of vinyl records mostly. I have no trouble making accurate 24/96 copies of vinyl with my Alesis Masterlink. I thought maybe this was a less expensive DAC. It's a bit out of my price range.
Thanks again,
John Elison
That being the case the Metrum Octave Mk11 might be in the range you were interested in.
(I really hate to sound like a "fan boy", but I started out with the original Octave & someone
mentioned to me he thought the Mk11 version was closer to the Hex than the original was..)
Happy "hunting" on whatever you decide to go with.
I'm a huge fan. I finally posted my review above.
Edits: 03/22/14 03/22/14
Thanks, this looks interesting. It seems to have an 'analogue' nature very similar to the MSB, and in fact one review suggests exactly this.
I have some more planning to do, to get to a very short short-list; this may well be on it.
I don't think you necessarily need a DAC with tubes if the rest of your system contains tubes. My favorite DAC is the April Music Eximus DP1, which retails for $3200. It is transparent and accurate.
My criteria for determining transparency and accuracy are digital recordings of vinyl. I use an Alesis Masterlink to copy vinyl records at 24/96. I can do A/B comparisons and the digital copies sound just like the LPs to me. When I playback the 24/96 files with my April Music Eximus DP1, they also sound just like the LPs when played on my Sota Millennia Vacuum turntable . Therefore, I would highly recommend you check out the April Music Eximus DP1.
John - Dave Pogue says it's largely thanks to you that I was able to get in contact with Simon Lee at April Music. Because the U.S. distributor wasn't responding to my inquiries about a repair to my Stello CD player, Simon had it repaired for free at the factory in Korea with the only cost to me being the return shipping. That made me even more of an admirer of April Music, and I acted on my long-time temptation to get the Eximus DP-1 DAC/preamp/ headphone amp. I believe it's the most transparent piece of audio gear I've ever encountered, and not in the hyper-detailed, in-your-face sense but in the sense of sounding like live music. I do run it into a tube amplifier which, as you suggest, may be what gives the best result.
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