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How does it enhance your system? Consider me ignorant, but I've never considered one.
Follow Ups:
If you're listening to CD's you have a DAC. CD players have one inside, you may want a BETTER DAC and "can" purchase a stand alone DAC that is better than what's in the CDP. Then sell from as low as under $100 to many thousands. If you have a lower quality player you can also by a better quality transport to use with the DAC. A DAC can or may be able to accept other digital sources besides a transport such as a PC/Mac, music server, Squeezebox and so on. Like anything else in this hobby the choices are many with varying quality and price.
In helping to meet your needs things like what is your system and what are you willing to spend and then expect in return for those $$ are the key to moving forward once you understand what a DAC can do.
ET
OK this is an edit. It is as if troutbum asked:Q troutbum:> Why should one buy a DAC?
So instead of any kind of answer, further down in this thread Someone says:
A :> Quite simply, you need to go out and listen to complete systems so that you can understand system synergy.
So the guy is asking should I buy one, answer bla. bla, bla. But really no answer to his question. Go listen, where is he suppose to listen. You take it for granted that he can just go down to the corner and waste somebodys time until he feels comfortable enough to actually hear the subtleties of sound. That is no kind of answer. Does this mean that if he cannot understand system synergy he does not need a Dac?
Q :> How does it enhance your system?
He already assumes a fact that has not been presented, that the Dac will enhance his system. He asks how?
The answer we get further down in the thread, still answering the same question is:
A :> You need someone to walk you through a series of experiences to help you understand what is possible based on who are you, what you like, what you already have, (room), and what is best.
What series of experiences, is going to tell us how does it enhance our systems. This is not an answer to the question. It is no help at all. This is not taken out of context.
Somebody who knows more than me needs to say, hay you will need one, and two without one you will not hear anything.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
Edits: 06/15/12 06/15/12 06/15/12
I never intended to be answer Troutbum's question, but correct your post.
""This is not an answer to the question""
Yes, and the post that my answer addressed, was to YOUR post, - which also did not answer Troutbum's question, but further obscured it. You have no right to dictate to others whether or not they SHOULD be answering the question... when you say....
"It is no help at all"
Of course, correcting your (lie) or Straw Man, is no help to the original question(s) posed by Troutbum. Pot meet kettle. All of your posts in this thread, are not only no help to Troutbum's original questions, - but they take away from them. YOU started this, "diminishing returns" sub-thread.
""This is not taken out of context.""
Yes, it is still taking it out of (Troutbum's) context. Absolutely. YOU changed the context from Troutbum's question, to wrongheaded assumptions about "diminishing returns," and costs. The context is about your erroneous assumptions, not Troutbum's original question. My answer to you was within context of your dumb sub-thread.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
context of their reply TO YOU as answers to YOUR WRONGHEADED statements; - cannot be attributed as answers to Troutbum's questions: THEY ARE LIES.I NEVER attempted to answer his questions as his questions were answered very well by other posters in this thread.
But certainly I felt the need to criticize your erroneous assumptions (and non-answers) to Troutbum's posts/questions. Since you yourself admitted that you too would like those questions answered: I would humbly suggest that you remain silent, read, and learn, - instead of posting irrelevant pictures, and obfuscating the matters at hand: with assumptions and (generating lies about what others are saying) about matters you have no experience with.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Edits: 06/15/12
nt
Close enough?
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
"Close enough?"
To Cyberstalking?
"Your lunacies have been indulged up till now.."
Point taken.
that I respect him, and his history here, and would NEVER say something like that to him.
Cheers,
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
A dedicated outboard DAC will often (but not always) sound better than the internal DAC of a CD player........ One should always audition before buying if at all possible.
It seems to me that there are two main reasons why one might want an external DAC. One is if you have a reliable disc player, but want to gain a more satisfying playback without incurring the even greater expense of purchasing an more satisfying disc player. The other reason is if you need computer interconnectivity, such as USB, which your current disc player's internal DAC doesn't support.I think that diminishing return curves exist for many consumer products classes. A $17k Honda Civic can provide the basic transportation needs of most people, and do so reliably, economically, and even with a small dash of fun. So, why is there a market for a $100k Porche, or a $300k Ferrari, or a $1M Bugatti? What high-end audio and high-end automobiles have in common is that they both deliver a strong emotional, even spiritual, benefit/reward to their consumers. When you're talking about emotional benefits, price value claculations often loose their moorings.
_
Ken Newton
Edits: 06/13/12
Ken Newton:> I think that diminishing return curves exist for many consumer products classes. A $17k Honda Civic can provide the basic transportation needs of most people, and do so reliably, economically, and even with a small dash of fun. <
If basic transportation, reliably, or economy is the reason that you buy a car, then the more you spend on exotic sports cars the less you get.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
your poor logic........
Because almost no one buys a sports car for basic transportation. And the few who might possibly, are unconcerned about diminishing returns, and they are not worried about the costs involved with their transportation.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Of course we don't buy sports cars for basic transportation. It amuses me that they can do what they do, and still fulfil such a menial task.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
Looking at it from a 'transportation' perspective.
You would buy a specialty 'car' to fit the taks at hand vs. any car, for example:
If you need a car for travelling long distances one might purchase a car with good fuel economy or comfort, depending on their priorities.
If you need transportation to satisfy the requirement for speed you might but a car with good 0-60 times.
So even with cars 'speciality' can be justified, one car that excels in one area will aways out-perform others in those situations.
In fact no matter what field you look, specialty products exist because of their ability to excel at a given task.
However if you don't care about what happens between point-A and point-B, then any car is good enough. Same for music, if you don't care about what happens to the power between the wall and your gear then you probably won't see a need for a filter or balanced power. etc. Having low or no expectations or requirements reduces the need for specialty products.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
?????
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
"I think that diminishing return curves exist for many consumer products classes. A $17k Honda Civic can provide the basic transportation needs of most people, and do so reliably, economically, and even with a small dash of fun. So, why is there a market for a $100k Porche, or a $300k Ferrari, or a $1M Bugatti? What high-end audio and high-end automobiles have in common is that they both deliver a strong emotional, even spiritual, benefit/reward to their consumers. When you're talking about emotional benefits, price value claculations often loose their moorings."
I read somewhere this past year that rock n roll singer Steven Tyler bought (a custom built) what was purported to be fastest (at 0-60 specifically) sports car (at least at the time he bought it). I mention this because, yes there is for some a very emotional (psychological) desire to have the biggest/fastest/most expensive, etc. product they can afford. I suspect Steven Tyler's personality did or still does tend toward the extreme and that goes a ways in explaining his desire to have such an automobile, whereas the personality/temperment of a wealthy Intel engineer/inventor might be perfectly content driving a Honda Accord, but of course not all techies are so modest in their choice of personal transportation - Larry Ellison and Paul Allen come to mind.
You are not alone that is for sure, they tell us hat we need them then it turns out we already have them in our computers, players and amps. What I can't get a clear explanation on is how a $1.00 Dac in a Mac, can do 80% of what a high end, high price, as much as a car costs, or a down payment on a house Dac can do?
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
It certainly is a fair question, because I am looking at this as if I do not own a Dac, and I have no clue why anyone would want to. Before I try any of these many free trial offers, I want to make sure my equipment is up to snuff. Is this truly the tale of Archimedes Gold, or The Emperor's New Clothes.
As you are well aware while taking a bath, Archimedes noticed that the level of the water in the tub rose as he got in, and realized that this effect could be used to determine the amount of gold in an object. Archimedes then took to the streets naked, so excited by his discovery that he had forgotten to dress.
Whereas in the short tale by Hans Christian Andersen two weavers promise an Emperor a new suit of clothes that is invisible to those unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent. When the Emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, a child cries out, "But he isn't wearing anything at all!"
Manufactures have conflicts of interests that may cause them to lie to themselves about what they can actually hear. If I appear skeptical when I see a naked man running, it is because I have to determine if it is indeed Archimedes, or just the Emperor.
I run my McIntosh pre-amp from the Dac in my Dads antiquated Denon surround that he left when he passed away many years ago at age 91. It plays 24 bit, 96 kHz audio. Everything sounds better going though McIntosh. Time is not on our side, as our hearing ages Archimedes, becomes the Emperor.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
""Manufactures have conflicts of interests that may cause them to lie to themselves about what they can actually hear.""
Your statement implies that manufacturers have a common goal, and fall short in achieving it. Manufacturers actually build idiosyncratic products that sound good to them. If you agree with that particular manufacturers application of their product, and agree with them that they have a particular insight into "sounds good," - then you will be more likely to buy their product: depending of course, on other considerations.
I am not sure what your two condescendingly vague little anecdotes are exactly intended to elucidate, but it still appears to me that you are making completely erroneous, (and quite childish), assumptions about audio equipment based on a dramatic lack of experience.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Sumflow> Manufactures have conflicts of interests that may cause them to lie to themselves about what they can actually hear. <
See advances in computer audio http://youtu.be/XpAekzBJ6jk?t=19m20s
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit
Sordidman > Your statement implies that manufacturers have a common goal, and fall short in achieving it. <
Well yeah. They each want to sell something that everybody else in the world wants.
Sordidman > I am not sure what your two condescendingly vague little anecdotes are exactly intended to elucidate, but it still appears to me that you are making completely erroneous, (and quite childish), assumptions about audio equipment based on a dramatic lack of experience. <
If what you say is true there would be no need to have blind listening tests. It would sound the same even with your eyes wide open. But it seems that we tend to hear what we want to hear. Even more so with a financial conflict of interest involved.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
I don't frequent this forum, but I was searching for something and came on this thread. Great stuff.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
I would definitely produce "D", unless people are going to buy speakers unopened in a "big box o crap" from woot.com.As a buyer, the results tell me to hang tight to my wallet and be skeptical about my own perceptions.
Edits: 06/18/12
This was discussed to death - and proponents of those still can't explain how results of a test, performed by individuals A, B and C on a system X, are relevant for individual D, listening to system Y.
You are aware, I assume, that abilities of ear/brain combination are vastly different between individuals? And that resolution of audio systems probably differs even more dramatically?
In other words - what do results, achieved by an arbitrary group of (half-deaf, inexperienced, biased - insert what you like here) listeners, listening for short period of time to an (unresolving, poorly matched, piece of crap - insert what you like here) "system", have to do with experienced audiophile, cirtically listening at length to resolving top-notch gear?
"You are aware, I assume, that abilities of ear/brain combination are vastly different between individuals?"
Actually, this can be tested scientifically. I wouldn't call the differences "vast". The primary psychoacoustic phenomena (frequency band masking, the early sound effect, fletcher munson effect) are pretty consistent because they arise from common physiology. Unless somebody is deaf.
Lets say the difference between me and Martha Argerich *playing* piano is "vast", but we hear the audio reasonably similarly.
... affects perception of details and soundstage.
Another, as Tony noted correctly, has to do with training and experience. Someone with perfect hearing, who hasn't been exposed to quality gear, simply wouldn't know what to listen for - i.e. what kind of differences could be there potentially.
There are psychological factors as well as psychoacoustical factors. They are at least as important. These include training, experience, and attention.
You would be incorrect when you state that musicians hear music the same way non-musicians hear. I lived with a musician for over 40 years, believe me they hear differently. One difference is whether one hears sounds or musical ideas. I also recall reading of studies using FMRI that support this statement.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Yes carcass93,
I agree, the point was about conflicts of interests and how we see, or in this case hear, what we want to hear. That is, my product sounds better to me, so you should pay me a premium for it.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
... that pales in comparison with the content.
You better stick with the pictures, getting rid of everything else...
perhaps he has already found it......
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
as you have no experience with audio manufacturers, or their products.So what are you talking about?
Or, is this just more trolling? A manufacturer is going to be build a product that they think sounds great. They set a price according to what it costs them to make it, and where they think that it fits in the realm of the market and other equipment. If people agree with their "take" on it's value, - they will buy it. If not, they will not.
There will never be a "conflict of interest." There will never be a consensus as to the "goodness" or "badness" in some universal sense.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Edits: 06/14/12
Sordidman:> as you have no experience with audio manufacturers, or their products. <
This is not about them. This is about the customers, and the customer experience which you have no experience with.
Sordidman:> A manufacturer is going to be build a product that they think sounds great. <
A manufacturer is going to be build a product that they think they can sell for a profit, or they will not build it.
Sordidman:> They set a price according to what it costs them to make it, <
You are dreaming, they set a price based on what the market will pay.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
""This is not about them.""Yes it is, it is about their products, and which product is right for each individual....
""customer experience which you have no experience with.""
What are you talking/lying about? Of course I have a ton of experience, (not as many as some here), but a lot of experience listening to, and buying a lot of different products. Why would you make such a foolish assumption?, - not knowing anything about anything, and about me?
""A manufacturer is going to be build a product that they think they can sell for a profit, or they will not build it.""
Absolutely not.... you saying that assures me that you have no clue what you're talking about. I have seen products that the manufacturer has never intended to sell. Besides, it's a balance of both. What sounds good, and what and where it fits into the market. Yes, in some cases, a manufacturer may build something, but never bring it to market.
""You are dreaming, they set a price based on what the market will pay.""
No. The price is set according to a number of factors. Again, you need to go out and get some listening experience. And some knowledge about what you are talking about....
What is the average mark-up of a retail price vs the "street" price of many high end components? In general, what is the "cost to build" percentage vs the retail price of most components?
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Edits: 06/14/12
Sumflow:> ..they set a price based on what the market will pay.
Sordidman:> No. The price is set according to a number of factors. Again, you need to go out and get some listening experience. And some knowledge about what you are talking about....
What is the average mark-up of a retail price vs the "street" price of many high end components? In general, what is the "cost to build" percentage vs the retail price of most components?
See: http://youtu.be/caFD7bwkuEc?t=44s
Charge what the market will bear. A business wisdom that comes from Greek and Roman times. If prices were based on cost we would not pay a dollar at MacDonald's for what costs three cents with the cup, for soda. This man clearly says the cost to build products has nothing at all to do with rinsing prices. They set a price based on what the market will pay, and he explains why.
In the old Peanuts comic strip, Lucy had a lemonade stand. But instead of selling lemonade, she offered psychotherapy. The sign over the stand read “The Psychiatrist is In — 5 Cents Please.” “Why do you charge five cents?” Charlie Brown asked her one day. “It’s what the market will bear,” Lucy replied.
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit
If I bought speakers G or D, I'd want to sit close enough to read the name plates. Speaker S seems better for far field listening.
Bill
they are counterproductive to your posts, and have poor applicability to the discussions at hand. And are decidedly not creative, funny, or interesting.""If what you say is true there would be no need to have blind listening tests""
Yes and no, blind listening tests don't have much value: their application is important perhaps later, as a point of fun, to help show us where we excel or fall short, in critical listening.
If you are being caught up in getting what's best, - then you are ripe for failure.
For we listen to systems, a gestalt, not individual components. In fact, it is sometimes better to acquire a particular component that performs a little worse comparatively, yet has a symbiosis with another piece of equipment, or other combinations of components. Plus, we look to find the RIGHT application for the particular system and sets of components. would you place 6 ft tall Wilson Maxx speakers in an 13 by 14 room.
""But it seems that we tend to hear what we want to hear. Even more so with a financial conflict of interest involved.""
That is an extremely negative viewpoint, and it is largely untrue. Acquiring a lovely sound system is individual, and complicated. We all have different tastes, different rooms, different experiences: (different applications). A common mistake, (if you want to call it that), is to do what you're doing. (If that is what you are doing, based on your wrong headed assumptions, idiotic anecdotes, and obvious inexperience: I question whether or not you are here to troll).
If you are looking to get yourself a system that you like...Quite simply, you need to go out and listen to complete systems so that you can understand system synergy. You need to ask a lot of questions from a humble perspective. You need someone to walk you through a series of experiences to help you understand what is possible based on who are you, what you like, what you already have, (room), and what is best.
Or, there's always a Sharp boom box....
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Edits: 06/14/12
"Our lunacies have been indulged up till now.."
Can you explain or provide a fairytale for this?
If the label on Y axis had been Total and not additional output, then the first derivative of the total function with respect to X exhibits "diminishing marginal returns" meaning that the first derivative of Y with respect to X is positive, but decreasing. At the maximum of the total function, it is zero.
Observe, don't think
Edits: 06/13/12
For what you're suggesting, there should be an asymptote starting at some point on the y-axis running parallel to the x-axis. The asymptote, in my opinion, would equal perfection. Instead, your graph shows negative gain after the X point (ie, things get worse after a certain input).
> Instead, your graph shows negative gain after the X point (ie, things get worse after a certain input). <
Negative gain per dollar after the X point for sure. Things get worse per dollar spent, after a certain point. It does not mean there is no improvement, it means there is less improvement on the next dollar spent as compared to the previous dollar spent.
The law of diminishing returns states that in all productive processes, adding more of one factor of production, while holding all others constant, will at some point yield lower per-unit returns. The law of diminishing returns does not imply that adding more of a factor will decrease the total production, a condition known as negative returns.
A consequence of diminishing marginal returns is that as total investment increases, the total return on investment as a proportion of the total investment (the average product or return) decreases.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
I'm talking about quality.
"Negative gain per dollar after the X point for sure."
What your graph implied was that the more $ you throw at something (in this case a DAC), at some point, X, the quality will begin to decrease. That's not right.
Maybe you're taking a business approach and talking about ROI. That would be an entirely different issue and my comments had nothing to do with that context.
"adding more of one factor of production, while holding all others constant"
A DAC is not just a D-A converter (ie, a chip) -- it is a system (chips, power supplies, filters, caps, resistors, etc). Why would anyone confine themselves to improving only one part of a system and expect the entire system to reach its maximum potential?
Business approach again?
Joe what you are saying is correct. What the graph was suppose to implie was that the more $ you throw at something (in this case a DAC), at some point, X, the quality gained per dollar will begin to decrease.
Most of us do not have unlimited funds to spend just on audio. If we have an eye to the most quality we can get for a specific amount of resources. Then we can decide whether the next purchase is worth it.
The point of diminishing returns is when the next dollar spent gives less of an increase in quality than the previous dollar did. ie: rate of change of return per dollar.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
Without unlimited funds each of us has to find the spot.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
.
Joe,
Is this better?What shows "defects found," being costs. And what says "time spent testing," better sonic?
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
Edits: 06/12/12
The higher the system resolution and hearing acuity the more benefit of an outboard Dac.
Glasses for the Blind are of no use....
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
> The higher the system resolution and hearing acuity the more benefit of an outboard Dac. <
We will probably see a ceiling to system resolution, and everybody is going blind. Even if we all have the maximum resolution, hearing acuity is reduced through time.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
Those curves must be for men who worked in a boiler factory. I'm pushing 70 and still hear to 14 kHz, certainly no 50 dB threshold shift at 6 kHz.
When it comes to various audio distortion the issue is not so much hearing acuity as concentration and training. This has been well established by those scientists who conduct listening tests.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Maybe this is all you need.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
"Glasses for the Blind are of no use...."
Are you sure? :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Well maybe these kind of glasses.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
They are getting there, but too late for my wife, who passed away two years ago.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Sorry to hear that Tony.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Most good outboard DACs will outperform the DAC in the CDP. Separate power system and more space to optimize th design. Also, benefits in selection of digital filters on some DACs.
You've already bought a DAC. It is contained in your Krell Kav 300. Other people prefer to separate their CD Transports from their DAC and buy a Stand alone DAC.
I use a Squeezebox Touch and stream my Music from my Computer and have a separate DAC that is superior to the built in DAC in the SBT.
I used to be primarily a Trout Bum, but have now been hooked into Saltwater Fly Fishing and Fresh Water Carp Fishing on a Fly.
Cut-Throat
Cut Throat....Alas, the Krell was replaced years ago, and a Jolida 302b now resides on the stand.
I still fish for trout often as I have a cabin in northern Michigan. However, I love salt as well, especially tarpon, bonita, and bones. Also, I have caught lakers and pike in Canada on the fly, and am still chasing my first fly rod musky.
So, back to the DAC....what do they do?
Digital to Analog Converter. DAC..... They convert digital info into an analog signal that can be amplified and listened to. Whether it comes from a CD or a Computer disk file.
Cut-Throat
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