Audio Asylum Thread Printer

Get a view of an entire thread on one page

Digital Drive

Recent Rega Saturn CD Player purchasers - any problems with the unit?

75.156.98.13

There were control software issues with the Rega Saturn. Anyone out there purchase a unit from current production? Have you experienced any of the software "glitches" that affected prior units?

Follow Ups:

RE: Recent Rega Saturn CD Player purchasers - any problems with the unit? - Wasatch 07:28:20 10/18/09 (0)
Just bought a new Apollo, we'll see what happens. As to the Saturn, I've demoed this puppy and it is an excellent player. I've also demoed the new Isis and that machine is gorgous.
That seems impossible to get six bad units going to one household - keith_d 00:51:52 10/15/09 (14)
If that happened then there would have to be a virtual avalanche of complaints from many, many different users. There have been complaints, but not near the required numbers for this to make any sense.

I think the Rega models had some problems and I think most online only reviewers have some problems.
- I agree with HAL9000 - mbnx01 11:17:28 10/15/09 (1)
  'This sort of thing has cropped up before and it has always been attributable to human error'.
  - To err is human - keith_d 12:24:31 10/15/09 (0)
    To debug divine.
- RE: That seems impossible to get six bad units going to one household - Tony Lauck 09:38:56 10/15/09 (11)
  There are many complex and obscure reasons why a design problem could show up as described. This is unlikely with analog electronics, but the operation of malfunctioning digital hardware and software can defy intuition. Problems can relate to simple matters like AC line voltage and noise, temperature and humidity, and peculiar patterns of user operation. Some people have a special talent for invoking problems with computer equipment. I used to read product specifications and manuals and then intuitively guess that certain operations would fail. More often than not, I was right. What happens is that a corner of the design space holds a subtle bug and the designers of the equipment may not even be aware of the situation. Often this is apparent in the product descriptions, where unclear concepts turn into design bugs and ambiguous documentation.
  
  Reputable companies will use inputs from customers with problems as a way to improving their products. Other companies simply deny that there is a problem. I am presently looking to buy a NAS server for holding terrabytes of media files. I comb through the various forums, etc., and Google for "XYZ sucks". It is possible to read between the lines and learn much about the quality of engineering and the integrity of the vendor. Based on this information, I have narrowed down my search by excluding several vendors.
  
  Tony Lauck
  
  "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
  - Rega did not deny the problem, at least not wholesale - keith_d 12:23:40 10/15/09 (10)
    They thought something was amiss with one person's complaints.
    
    Again, the basic issue is if one consumer got six units that could not work either 1. The odds were completely defied, based on the volume of complaints from other consumers, which was not extraordinarily high, or, 2. There's something weird with this one user.
    
    With six units it's not really possible he got a sliver of a production run, or pre production units, which uniquely had this trouble. Because six units usually connotes a certain period of time.
    
    Now, your mention of particular computer end users being able to produce more faults than others can is a mysterious area. Some people suffer a lot of broken bones, while others who may be more active physically never seem to. Are their bones brittle ("manufacturer's" qc problem) or do they move in ungainly ways (end user, ineffable screw ups)?
    
    I wasn't there to see the six units, and have never owned a Rega (bought my sister a table back in the 80's,) and I can't know for sure, but something seems odd. And I remain skeptical of many online reviewers in general for...various reasons.
    - RE: Rega did not deny the problem, at least not wholesale - Tony Lauck 15:33:59 10/15/09 (9)
      I've seen cases where a problem showed up at only one customer site where the failing equipment worked perfectly everyplace else, and yet the problem was ultimately tracked down to an engineering design error. In one case it turned out that a combination of heavy usage, optimized software that enabled this heavy usage, and mechanical design problems that caused static electricity build up under heavy usage caused errors. A defective disk controller design turned intermittent errors into permanent errors when it wrote on the wrong spot on the disk. There were only a few customers running the latest software, only a few customers placing heavy load on their systems, and only one doing both in Arizona (or was it New Mexico). Customers in more humid climates never had any problems.
      
      For various reasons, and this example is one of them, I am very skeptical of arguments that are statistical in nature. All of these arguments may be perfectly valid when they are based on a correct model of reality, but the interesting problems always are ones where the model is broken.
      
      Tony Lauck
      
      "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
      - I think that's really all beside the point - keith_d 18:31:29 10/15/09 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Rega did not deny the problem, at least not wholesale posted by Tony Lauck on October 15, 2009 at 15:33:59
        
        > I've seen cases where a problem showed up at only one customer site where the failing equipment worked perfectly everyplace else, and yet the problem was ultimately tracked down to an engineering design error.
        
        Except in this case the owner of the six units took one or more to a dealer's and could not replicate the problem...except by his claim _once_ when the dealer was out of the room.
        
        There are outlying statistical events, but I don't dismiss probabilities. I think you're just making this particular case too complicated.
        
        RE: I think that's really all beside the point - Tony Lauck 19:20:21 10/15/09 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think that's really all beside the point posted by keith_d on October 15, 2009 at 18:31:29
        
        It's not complicated at all. Assuming there is even partial truth in the information in the thread it is clear that the manufacturer didn't handle an unhappy customer properly. Now they are stuck with a bad rep.
        
        Tony Lauck
        
        "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
        
        They gave him six units and they didn't treat the customer properly? - keith_d 22:36:10 10/15/09 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I think that's really all beside the point posted by Tony Lauck on October 15, 2009 at 19:20:21
        
        Oh baby, let me put you on my list of posters to take with a vat of salt.
        
        Again, I'm not denying the Rega units had _some_ problems.
        
        RE: They gave him six units and they didn't treat the customer properly? - Tony Lauck 07:14:24 10/16/09 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: They gave him six units and they didn't treat the customer properly? posted by keith_d on October 15, 2009 at 22:36:10
        
        They could have given him 6000 units and if none of them worked they wouldn't be treating him properly. Proper treatment would have been to admit their mistake and return his money. (My apologies if this was mentioned somewhere in the thread that I missed.)
        
        Tony Lauck
        
        "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
        
        6000 units to get one working one? snicker - keith_d 10:21:55 10/16/09 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: They gave him six units and they didn't treat the customer properly? posted by Tony Lauck on October 16, 2009 at 07:14:24
        
        I think your output need to be re clocked.
        
        Six defective units to one individual who cannot reproduce the error at a dealer's means there would have been an avalanche of others complaining. There was not an avalanche; there were complaints.
        
        And your invocation of 6000 units is clearly hysterical: It would indicate there were _no_ working units to any consumer, ever. That's just not reality.
        
        RE: 6000 units to get one working one? snicker - Tony Lauck 11:49:17 10/16/09 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: 6000 units to get one working one? snicker posted by keith_d on October 16, 2009 at 10:21:55
        
        "And your invocation of 6000 units is clearly hysterical: It would indicate there were _no_ working units to any consumer, ever. That's just not reality."
        
        Every heard of Windows 3.1? Millions of non-working copies shipped. Good enough for some. Good enough for others not to complain. Good enough to make Bill Gates billions. You get the idea...
        
        Tony Lauck
        
        "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
        
        No, I don't get the idea - keith_d 14:40:29 10/16/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: 6000 units to get one working one? snicker posted by Tony Lauck on October 16, 2009 at 11:49:17
        
        Because buggy is a larger spectrum than "won't play a CD." And you could replicate a real bug at a computer store most of the time - if you have a clue.
        
        And further, there were volumes of complaints about that software.
        
        Again, it's simple: The episode of one individual requiring six units (or 6000 in your hilarious example,) would, if based in reality, imply a huge percentage failure in the field. That didn't happen. This one case was an outlier for some reason, and not due to a unit's failure, or two units' failure...because he had SIX of them.
        
        lol. Carry on.
        
        "Glitches" not necessarily "failures" of the following sort: - Sboez 18:04:22 10/16/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: No, I don't get the idea posted by keith_d on October 16, 2009 at 14:40:29
        
        - failure to initialize (some) disks;
        - fast forwarding to the next track cuts out a fraction of the start of
        the music of that track;
        - stop button on the remote does not stop CD;
        - stop button on player, if depressed, does not stop CD operation;
        - lifting of the lid does not stop disk rotation, where it usually does;
        - garbled audio (dropouts).
        
        I have experienced all of the above noted "gremlins." I believe Doug Schroeder wrote honestly about his experiences.
        
        If you read again, Mr Schroeder was able to demonstrate the defect to a dealer with his second unit.
        
        Otherwise the sound (sans glitches)of the player is very good.
        
        Exactly - Tony Lauck 14:13:16 10/17/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "Glitches" not necessarily "failures" of the following sort: posted by Sboez on October 16, 2009 at 18:04:22
        
        Exactly.
        All of the symptoms you report could be caused by software bugs in player firmware. It is entirely possible that every single unit in the field has these problems, but depending on customer usage patterns only some people saw them. It is also possible that firwmare bugs only showed up with certain hardware. (I have seen the appearance of a firmware bug be hidden by certain lot numbers of a dual port memory, for example.)
        The quality of a product using digital technology includes the quality of the firmware. All manufacturers have bugs in their firmware. The quality of a company is demonstrated by the way they handle these bugs.
        
        Tony Lauck
        
        "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
        
        Edits: 10/18/09
I only asked because of a recent post Sept 24, 2009 on Audiogon forum: - Sboez 18:48:14 10/13/09 (13)
Rega Saturn. Is it really a giant killer?

09-24-09: Timoteo
One problem I ran into with the home-trial Saturn I had over a weekend was that it seemed to demand pristine disks.

Some of my CDs have a few scratches on them, but generally nothing serious. The Saturn got very upset over a couple of my CDs. I took them out, looked them over, and really couldn't find anything obviously wrong with them. I listened to a lot of different brands of players at the local audio store and this is the first one that got upset with some of the CDs I like to use for testing players.

One CD started skipping a bit - barely noticeable at first - kind of like a skipped heartbeat - but then it started getting stuck and skipping in some places, and in one place it decided it had had enough and simply froze - it stopped advancing the time and muted itself. I had to skip to the next track. I put the same CD in my own player and it played fine. I had this same problem with an Apollo they had at the store too. I'm pretty sure they both use the same transport, so that shouldn't be too surprising.

If you get to home-trial the Saturn, play a lot of CDs to make sure it tracks them well before you plop down $2500.
- RE: I only asked because of a recent post Sept 24, 2009 on Audiogon forum: - coolhand 21:53:46 10/13/09 (0)
  A giant killer ?
  As far as I'm concerned, this machine is not a killer of anything..... quite the opposite, it is a lover, and a music lovers lover of music... all these hyped up hyperventilating ultra engineered masterpieces of transport finesse, up & oversampling excess, Hi-Fi Brow prowess...Pah !!
  
  Where the f*ck did the music go in the process...?
  
  It sounded great out of the box, even better after a few tweaks and customer support was more than decent, the company has a philosophy and an aesthetic which I can ascribe to which counts for something in my book...
  
  The only part which really might eventually wear in it, the transport, is dirt cheap to replace and plentiful... plays ALL my discs thus far regardless of apparent and obvious scratches, oh yeah did I say that it 'out loved' the music more than the Ayre CX-5e, Nagra CDP, EMM Labs, AA Prestige, Cambridge 840 and several others who stepped in the arena already ? :-))
  
  Others mileage WILL vary, and boy oh boy was Douggie S haulin' some heavy Karma on his run (!!) ...in the end it's all meaningless if you aren't plain enjoyin' nuthin' but the music...
- The players that I have tested here can play this disc... - KT88 20:04:57 10/13/09 (11)
  Not only is it completely trashed (the photo doesn't really even do it's ratty condition justice) but it isn't even a CD. It's a CD-R and it has no less than 143 mp3 files on it. I have tried it in both a demo Apollo and a Saturn here and not only does it play in both units but the players counted and indexed each track and when I pushed play, the CD Text function allowed the title of the first track to scroll across the players displays. I have not seen a tougher optical disc to use as a read test for any CD player. I actually found this disc on the sidewalk in front of my home one day and to say it's scratched is quite an understatement.
  -Bill
  - A bogus test for a CD player - Tony Lauck 20:39:39 10/13/09 (8)
    "It's a CD-R and it has no less than 143 mp3 files on it"
    
    This is a bogus test for a CD player. It might be appropriate for a drive used in a computer.
    
    MP3s are not stored on disk in the same format as CD audio. Data CDROMs have an extra level of error correction. Therefore, data disks are substantially more reliable than CDs. When a drive encounters a bad data disk it slows down its read rate drastically to accommodate the complex error correction required to recover data. However, MP3s are already compressed down to a low data rate. So it is entirely possible to play MP3s in real time on disks that are horribly damaged, although similar damage with a CD audio disk would result in something completely unplayable. This is more about the data format than the player.
    
    Tony Lauck
    
    "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
    - RE: A bogus test for a CD player - KT88 20:57:19 10/13/09 (7)
      I'm not so sure about that. It is an optical medium and no matter what is on the disc (we know it is a series of pits and lands, ie ones and zeros), the info has to be able to be read optically. The scratches block (by refraction) the reception of the lasers light. I see DVD ROM drives that have problems reading dics with fewer scratches and they should have more memory available. I should have a sacrificial CD around somewhere that I can bring to levels of horrible condition until it refuses to be read in order to test that theory of yours. It involves a little luck no matter how you slice it (pardon the pun) as you can occasionally find the tiniest of scratches in the wrong spot on some discs which will cause every player that you put it into to refuse to read that portion. I have a couple of those discs and no player will read those areas consistently.
      -Bill
      - RE: A bogus test for a CD player - Tony Lauck 21:44:45 10/13/09 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: A bogus test for a CD player posted by KT88 on October 13, 2009 at 20:57:19
        
        I worked for a computer manufacturer that developed optical disk technology and helped to standardize the CD-ROM format, so I am familiar with the technology and its limitations. In addition, I have practical experience with mastering audio CDs and a few "enchanced" CDs that included computer data as well as audio tracks. As it happens, one of these enhanced CDs had production difficulties and so I got to be all too familiar with all of the various limitations of the CD audio and CD data formats, and how problems can involve complex interactions between disks and players.
        
        The nature of digital data storage is that it is designed to preserve data in spite of many errors. This is an illusion. It appears that one's data is perfect when it is on the very edge. One slight additional degradation and it's over the cliff... This property makes it very difficult to design and conduct valid experiments to test data reliability. I would say that doing this properly is almost impossible without in depth knowledge of the technology and/or without specialized test equipment.
        
        Tony Lauck
        
        "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
        
        A valid test for a CD player - KT88 06:19:04 10/14/09 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: A bogus test for a CD player posted by Tony Lauck on October 13, 2009 at 21:44:45
        
        So are you saying that even a CD if badly damaged and which plays in the player does nothing to show that the player will play badly damaged discs? I do understand that your are distinguishing mp3 files from CD tracks. I also understand that it is hard to say when a disc will or will not play by looking at it. My only concern however is addressing the assertion that because one player will not play one disc does not mean that the lot of the players will not play any damaged disc, which I believe to be a huge assumption and a disservice to anyone interested in a good player. The assertion was made that a barely scratched disc had trouble being read in one player and so the argument there is that "then how can you expect discs with more damage to play". I feel that I can disprove that argument easily by playing a more damaged disk as the assertion does not address any technical argument, rather it is only a logical argument. That in itself is of course illogical ;-). So I feel justified in disproving the poor logic there. We will have to leave the technical fact that not every disc despite of its appearance will play in every player, regardless of manufacture, on the table. That's just not going to be disproved and I am not trying to do so. So I understand your point there, but you might also understand mine.
        -Bill
        
        RE: A valid test for a CD player - Tony Lauck 07:30:12 10/14/09 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: A valid test for a CD player posted by KT88 on October 14, 2009 at 06:19:04
        
        I would summarize the situation as follows. If you want to understand the QC issues related to disks and disk drives, then specialized knowledge and specialized tools are required. If you have audio on CDs that you don't want to lose then you must treat the disks with the greatest care. In addition, without backup copies you are still at risk.
        
        There is no way to intuitively understand issues related to the quality of data recorded on a disk or the performance of a disk drive in dealing with data errors. In particular, that fact that a disk plays well on a variety of players today does not mean that it won't suddenly deteriorate overnight. Similarly, the fact that a drive can play a bunch of damaged disks well does not mean that it will continue to do so, nor that it will play other damaged disks. This area is best treated as a "logic free zone".
        
        When I get a CD I rip it to my computer system using software that takes special care to get it right. It turns out that there are no problems with perhaps 95% of disks, but lately I've come across some old CDs that can't be read even though they have no scratches. This is the case on three separate computers, each with its own drive. Unfortunately, this music is lost for me, because I never made a copy. Most of the bad disks that I get come from disks that I am ripping for an Internet download service. When I get one that doesn't read properly it is usually because of scratches. About half the time these bad disks can be read on one of my three drives without any errors. At this point it is possible to burn a good CD-R copy. The drive that seems to do the best job on bad disks is old and slow. Perhaps it works well because it has seen very little use over its 10 year lifetime.
        
        I don't like the idea of being captive to a CDP manufacturer for a working drive. I've been that route and had to junk an expensive player because of a defective laser that was uneconomical to repair. Drives wear out. The last time this happened on my audio PC it took me less than 15 minutes to install a new CD/DVD reader/burner which cost me less than $40.
        
        Tony Lauck
        
        "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
        
        RE: A valid test for a CD player - Dave Pogue 16:48:33 10/14/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: A valid test for a CD player posted by Tony Lauck on October 14, 2009 at 07:30:12
        
        I must be lucky but I've never had a CD fail, nor a CDR that I've made. And I've made many hundreds. I can't account for the problems people have with CDs (though I remember a Conrad Johnson transport/DAC combo back in the 90s that wouldn't play maybe 5% of my CDs; fortunately that's long gone). In the case of CDRs, though, I'm convinced that burning them at the slowest possible speed -- mine, via a Tascam CD recorder, are all at 1X -- is a good thing vrom a reliability/longevity perspective. I HAVE had CDRs that were made by others on their computers become coasters, but then I've never involved computers in the burning process myself.
        
        RE: A valid test for a CD player - Tony Lauck 09:23:28 10/15/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: A valid test for a CD player posted by Dave Pogue on October 14, 2009 at 16:48:33
        
        I have yet to have a problem with a CD-R that I burned, including one that fell out of its jewel case and landed face down on a dirt road. Most of the problems that I've had were with CD-Rs burned by others (probably at high speed) and with pressed CDs that have been "pooched" by repeated mishandling. Recently, however, some unscratched CD's that I bought back in the 80's and early 90's have gone bad, including several titles in the "Compact Jazz" series. Probably some kind of rot. Is this the beginning of the end?
        
        Please note that some of these CDs that have gone "bad" still play with no obvious audible degradation. The RBCD "error concealment" has simply interpolated the bad data and if there is not a lot of high frequency content or if the fault persists for a short period it is hard to notice the interpolation. One of my bad CDs would not rip without error correction turned off and then it had lots of pops and cracks. It sounded bad on my CDP in my car as well.
        
        You are obviously taking good care of your CDs. Keep doing so and hopefully you won't have many problems. And definitely continue to burn CD-Rs at the best speed for the media and equipment. More important, back up any of these unreliable media before something goes wrong, rather than just placing blind trust in the technology.
        
        Tony Lauck
        
        "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
        
        RE: A valid test for a CD player - Dave Pogue 10:22:29 10/15/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: A valid test for a CD player posted by Tony Lauck on October 15, 2009 at 09:23:28
        
        I do keep waiting for one particular CDR to fail (and have backed it up just in case). I have no idea where I got it and it has no markings of any kind. Thing is, it's so transparent you can read a newspaper through it! But it soldiers on, so far at least.
        
        validity - KT88 08:29:54 10/14/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: A valid test for a CD player posted by Tony Lauck on October 14, 2009 at 07:30:12
        
        "There is no way to intuitively understand issues related to the quality of data recorded on a disk or the performance of a disk drive in dealing with data errors. In particular, that fact that a disk plays well on a variety of players today does not mean that it won't suddenly deteriorate overnight. Similarly, the fact that a drive can play a bunch of damaged disks well does not mean that it will continue to do so, nor that it will play other damaged disks. This area is best treated as a "logic free zone"."
        
        This is what I was getting at and I agree with that assessment. I am simply suggesting that since it is a logical error, that I could illustrate that. I understand from your perspective though how disproving poor logic does not satisfy the physics of the situation. The problem that I see posed is not that of a physical nature but of a logical one as there seems to be a debate of what might happen rather than of what is possible. I appreciate your insight.
        -Bill
  - RE: The players that I have tested here can play this disc... - Sboez 20:25:49 10/13/09 (1)
    Curiously, why would my player malfunction on clean and perfect disks?
    - RE: The players that I have tested here can play this disc... - KT88 20:48:45 10/13/09 (0)
      Perhaps the pickup assembly is damaged? That's usually the case. Why not just send it to Rega for service if you think it's not reading discs as it should? Obviously from my disc example, it is not a design issue.
      -Bill
Coolhand problem free unit serial # 048XXX - Sboez 18:39:32 10/13/09 (0)
My glitchy unit's serial number is 040XXX (close to 41000). Perhaps buyers looking for a used Saturn can use these numbers to help make a decision.
RE: Recent Rega Saturn CD Player purchasers - any problems with the unit? - Spendor Harbeth 14:06:29 10/13/09 (0)
My Rega Saturn failed 6 weeks after purchase. I traded it for a Naim CD5x, which I prefer over all.
RE: Recent Rega Saturn CD Player purchasers - any problems with the unit? - coolhand 04:32:35 10/13/09 (2)
I too experienced numerous issues as Doug outlined previously and raised the matter with the Rega distributors, requesting them to forward all my collected user fault reports to Rega in the U.K
I was offered a replacement for my first one but insisted that I would only accept one if it was from a later production run (with the hope that Rega would address the MANY reports of glitchy operational faults in the interim)
....I waited a couple of months and although Rega apparently did not acknowledge any specific issues or revisions to the machines, the unit I received has been operating near faultlessly, with essentially none of the issues I experienced with the earlier unit.

I say 'near' faultlessly as, on only 2 occasions in 10 months, it has momentarily locked up when I have pushed the remote control buttons whilst it was still in the initialization stage just after inserting a disc, HOWEVER, it has rebooted and initialized itself and continued to function...where as previously if I had flummoxed the unit during initialization and it locked, the only solution was to actually turn the unit on and off via the front panel power switch.

I do have another MAJOR issue with the unit however, particularly since having had it Uber Clocked amongst numerous other 'enhancements' including direct coupling the DACs via Lundahl amorphous transformers to the outputs....I have been listening to more Cd's than vinyl and spending an inordinate amount of time enjoying myself in the process :-))

So far no other one box player I have had in my system has gotten the essence of the musical message, timing, nor timbre of instruments so right and without artifice/artifacts or digital-isms !...
If you read my previous forum posts on this matter you'll observe that I've had several of the most exalted players up against it, with the intent of spending a whole lot more money to get closer to my $$$ vinyl rigs delivery of music...

The Rega ISIS is shipping and that will be quite interesting to hear, it uses 2 current output Burr Brown PCM 1794 DACs with apparently all manner of fine tuning of their proprietary disc operating system and hardware etc...I will soon have them together for a back to back showdown...They've priced it up there with some of the 'big shot' players around the 10k+ mark, so lets bring it on !!
- RE: Recent Rega Saturn CD Player purchasers - any problems with the unit? - Sboez 06:14:34 10/13/09 (1)
  What is the serial number of your unit ( or the aprox range )?
  - RE: Recent Rega Saturn CD Player purchasers - any problems with the unit? - coolhand 07:48:26 10/13/09 (0)
    S/N: 048xxx
None whatsoever. nt - Jonathan 15:36:14 10/12/09 (0)
RE: Recent Rega Saturn CD Player purchasers - any problems with the unit? - mbnx01 10:48:15 10/12/09 (13)
I heard about problems with the first run of Apollo's, didn't know anything about Saturn problems.

I bought a Saturn new in a sealed box from a local dealer two years ago and have had ZERO problems with it.
- Rega Saturn CD Player - KT88 12:28:17 10/12/09 (12)
  I have sold Rega products for 12 years and I have seen and heard the evolution of the players. The first batch of Apollo players did exhibit a glitch where the operating system would freeze and it was traced to poor wave soldering of a chip. It did not effect every player, just a few which used that first group of boards. So not every player needed any attention and only the ones where the customer reported problems were repaired. All of the Apollos which showed any misbehavior and were returned for service or exchange were repaired free of charge under the warranty. The Saturn players were not effected by the same board issue and so had none of the associated problems which effected some of the Apollos. Any Apollo player being offered for sale as new at this point would not have those issues either as that has long been resolved.
  
  The software issue came from the confusion of some of the more compulsive customers who would either try and make the players malfunction or who would not heed the operating instructions. What was happening there was that they would not wait the required few seconds for the player to finish its initialization process before they would start repeatedly mashing buttons on the remote or the faceplate to send commands to the player. On occasion this scenario would also cause the players operating system to freeze due to the buffer overload and some of the users thought these players had the same issue. Rega decided to update the software to essentially lock out any commands until the player finished its initialization process. Perhaps they just increased the buffer size as that would have the same effect as forcing a delay for commands. In any case, I have not heard of many complaints since.
  -Bill
  - Correction of Two Critical Errors... - Doug Schroeder 18:02:02 10/12/09 (9)
    The standard explanation which was just offered above is in error in at least two important respects. As an individual who purchased these units prior to becoming a reviewer, and who wrote one of his first reviews voluntarily on the first Saturn unit I purchased full price with my hard earned money, I'll set the record straight - yet again. I have clarified this several times, and I believe that some of those involved in the discussion know it, but the same explanations keep getting stated, seemingly without regard to my input. So, once again here are the facts regarding the two errors:
    
    Wrong: THE IDEA THAT THE MALFUNCTIONS ONLY EFFECTED AN INITIAL BATCH OF APOLLO UNITS.
    
    I had three successive Saturns which displayed the same anomalies in operations as the supposedly only affected first batch of Apollo players. All three Saturn players ended up being defective, although I was repeatedly and confidently assured prior to purchasing my first one that the problems with the Apollo would be corrected in the Saturn. Note: The Saturn was manufactured well after the wave solder problem was to have been rectified, as it was developed and sold I believe at least a year after the Apollo appeared. I was told in direct answer to my pointed inquiry that the Saturn would not have such issues, which is a big reason I traded up to it - to escape the ongoing problems of the Apollo. In fact, it had the same suite of problems operationally as the Apollo. Also note that unplugging the units did nothing to eliminate the problems.
    
    Wrong: THE CAUSE WAS USER ERROR IN NOT WAITING TO ISSUE COMMANDS.
    
    This is one of the most often repeated pieces of misinformation regarding the Apollo and Saturn. Rega dealers should be well aware from the complaints of users that this was NOT the problem.
    
    I read every manual of every component I use, whether reviewed or not. I was aware of the need to pause prior to issuing commands from the first day of use. So also were the other persons issuing complaints aware of this idiosyncrasy of the Apollo and Saturn. The anomalies in operation were in no way related to issuing commands incorrectly; in fact, the errors also surfaced when commands were issued via the front panel controls. My habit is to place the disc in the machine, walk across the room, be seated and pick up the remote. During that time the Apollo or Saturn had initialized the disc. I followed this ritual every single time I used an Apollo or Saturn. I never made a practice of issuing commands to the unit prior to its initialization of a disc. Errors surfaced at all times during playback, often "mid-stream" through the CD's playback. I have already catalogued the errors I found elsewhere on threads.
    
    I will clarify once again; I was among the first in the country to use these players. I used them (actually had to exchange them out several times) WELL beyond the first run of Apollo players, long after the wave solder issue should have been resolved. I was assured by the Rega dealer and the distributor that the Saturn would NOT have these issues. It did. In fact, three of the Saturns successively did.
    
    I will cease my comments with the correction of these often repeated errors. I was forced by the sheer unreliability of the units over a more than one year period - during which a new model, the Saturn, which was to have corrected all these issues appeared - to add a preface to my review retracting my unqualified recommendation of the units.
    
    Rega may have quietly corrected the problem with the players, but since there was never an official acknowledgment of a problem, and the misinformation regarding the nature of the problem continues, it is impossible to gain certainty just what is happening with the players.
    
    I do not wish to enter an argument or debate on this issue, but will not let the errors continue uncorrected. I have no ill will against Rega, its distributor or dealers. I know or have met several of them, and they are fine individuals. I simply want the facts of my experience understood clearly. I am growing tired of repeating what I had clarified numerous times over the past two years. I wish that it would not be glossed over or ignored, as it has been repeatedly. These facts I have related were also submitted to the Rega dealer and distributor, and finally Rega U.K. at the time the multiple malfunctions were occurring in the hope that if there was a widespread problem it could be addressed.
    - RE: Correction of Critical mess... - KT88 08:34:02 10/13/09 (8)
      For the record, this guy exchanged something like 5 or 6 units through his dealer and the distributor. Neither have been able to make the players returned repeat the symptoms that he has reported. He was unable to do so in front of the dealer, yet insisted on replacements. Amazingly, the dealer obliged repeatedly based solely on his word and from the observation that some people somewhere have had a problem with the Apollo. I have never seen nor heard of any confirmed case of a malfunction with a Saturn. It seems the high level of service provided by the Rega folks here despite any proof of any malfunctions is truly unusual. You can find his rants here in the archives and will see that he is almost the only one reporting a problem, yet he has had 5 or 6? He must have the worst luck of anyone alive. No wait, he didn't lose a dime. Rega replaced every unit that he questioned. I guess it wasn't bad luck.
      -Bill
      - Doug Schroeder was and is not the only one reporting the problem - Sboez 20:35:31 10/13/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Correction of Critical mess... posted by KT88 on October 13, 2009 at 08:34:02
        
        Google and you will find others. I have an "afflicted" Saturn, now under service.
        
        the "others" - Sboez 18:39:03 10/14/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Doug Schroeder was and is not the only one reporting the problem posted by Sboez on October 13, 2009 at 20:35:31
        
        http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1203561091&ope (Open in New Window)
      - Further Errors to be Corrected... - Doug Schroeder 11:24:06 10/13/09 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Correction of Critical mess... posted by KT88 on October 13, 2009 at 08:34:02
        
        You are incorrect about units not malfunctioning at the dealer. The first unit I returned, an Apollo, malfunctioned, but it happened while the dealer was out of the room. The second unit returned malfunctioned while he was present. His answer was that all cdps hiccup from time to time.
        
        It should be noted that at the time of the review of the Saturn my first unit had just begun to display anomalies at the time of publication. The dealer and I were discussing the possibility that IR interference was at work. I should have known when the unit malfunctioned at the dealership that the problem was inherent in the unit, but I continued to keep an open mind to the solution.
        
        I eventually dismissed that possibility, as I took the player into a different environment without IR controls and the problems persisted. It was after having multiple units of the Saturn with defects that I wrote my preface to my review. At every step along the way I gave the benefit of the doubt, the option for a tight explanation. However, the problems were not explained or resolved satisfactorily. The one exception was the dealer who exchanged the first unit on faith, but after seeing the second unit malfunction never questioned my assertion of problems with the other units after that.
        
        With use in my system it became obvious that the nature of the "hiccups" were far worse than dismissed by him. It also became obvious that the Saturn did not have the fix, even though I was assured by that dealer that it would. This despite the Saturn's being manufactured about a year later than the Apollo.
        
        Bill, I'm glad to see you do not believe in luck. I do not believe in luck; I do accept probability. What is the likelihood that six different units from two different models and manufacturing runs well past the said initial run of the wave soldering problem came almost exclusively to me, and that there were not several to many other units also affected over that course of time? You can chalk it up to luck. I'll stick with statistics and say it's highly improbable.
        
        I'm not intersted in a personal battle over this, but the facts need to be known.
        
        You are also wrong about my not losing a dime: I took a larger than normal loss on selling the final unit with full disclosure to an Audiogoner. I was up front with the seller about the known problems. Concurrently with the problems being addressed with the Saturn I had begun to use the Cambridge Audio Azur 840C for review and felt its sound was better overall (this can be a very personal decision; some audiophiles like one or the other better). So I determined to switch to it. In the process I would lose the issues with the Saturn. Even though my sixth unit (3rd Saturn) tested out perfectly for two days, I sold it as if it was faulty. It turns out that was honest and wise; only a few months later the buyer contacted me. His unit had begun malfunctioning; it displayed the same types of problems I described and which you deny exist.
        
        I do not care to argue with you any longer. The community will make its decision.
        
        RE: The Errors of your ways... - KT88 12:28:25 10/13/09 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Further Errors to be Corrected... posted by Doug Schroeder on October 13, 2009 at 11:24:06
        
        "The first unit I returned... malfunctioned, but it happened while the dealer was out of the room."
        
        Man, you gotta love that! Bwah!, Ha, ha, ha!!
        
        "What is the likelihood that six different units from two different models and manufacturing runs well past the said initial run of the wave soldering problem came almost exclusively to me, and that there were not several to many other units also affected over that course of time?"
        
        I'd say that the liklyhood of multiple defective units being delivered to anyone is around 0%. I have not seen that number of malfunctioning units regardless of whether the fault was with the player or with the operator in all of the units sold here, over any period of time. That is simply ridiculous.
        
        "I took a larger than normal loss on selling the final unit with full disclosure to an Audiogoner."
        
        I was wondering when you'd get around to the real "issue". You also have neglected to include the account of your attempted negotiations for discounting on units "because you were a reviewer". You know, I really have a lot of respect for a company which refuses to allow its reviews be tainted by corruption via payola. Rega has never given product to reviewers before or after reviews. They always insist on having the units returned unless the reviewer actually purchases the unit.
        
        I find it amazing to consider that you would hold a grudge for so long against an organisation who was unwilling to bow to your extorts. I further find it incredulous that anyone who considers themselves a "reviewer" would automatically jump onto any thread started about any particular product just to spread misinformation. If you were actually paid for writing for any magazine with any editor of any caliber, you'd find yourself in the labor line post haste for dragging their reputation through the mud thusly. As always, I'll allow you the last word...
        Good day, Sir.
        -Bill
        
        I Have Made Phone Calls to Both the Distributor and... - Doug Schroeder 16:26:12 10/13/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The Errors of your ways... posted by KT88 on October 13, 2009 at 12:28:25
        
        Bill (KT-88) to discuss this situation in an attempt to hash this out. The outcome is that, not surprisingly, we each think we are correct and will not soon change our minds. We see things in completely opposite light, each of us feeling we are correct. So be it.
        
        Consequently, as I have spoken to these men and the issue was not resolved privately, I am not going to continue this discussion in public. I harbor no ill will against Bill, the distributor or Rega.
        
        Re: "unwilling to bow to your extorts" - Frank E 13:47:51 10/13/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The Errors of your ways... posted by KT88 on October 13, 2009 at 12:28:25
        
        If true, makes Doug Schroeder look REALLY bad. If untrue, makes you look REALLY bad. At this point nobody knows what is true, so you both end up looking bad, to one person or another. My sympathy to you both!
        
        You don't allow email - KT88 13:58:03 10/13/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Re: "unwilling to bow to your extorts" posted by Frank E on October 13, 2009 at 13:47:51
        
        PM me if you want confirmation on the fiasco.
        -Bill
        
        Email sent -nt - Frank E 19:51:32 10/13/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You don't allow email posted by KT88 on October 13, 2009 at 13:58:03
  - Good information- thanks for the contribution---NT - lancelot 13:41:13 10/12/09 (1)
    NT
    - FWIW Rega has a "cash for clunkers" promotion on now - Sboez 20:33:29 10/12/09 (0)
      Hopefully these units are problem free!
      
      Edits: 10/14/09

Post a Followup:

FAQ

Post a Message!

Forgot Password?

Moniker (Username):
Password (Optional):
	Remember my Moniker & Password (What's this?) Eat Me
E-Mail (Optional):
Subject:

Message:	(Posts are subject to Content Rules)

Optional Link URL:
Optional Link Title:
Optional Image URL:
Upload Image:
E-mail Replies:	Automagically notify you when someone responds.

To view your new posting or follow-up, click on the RELOAD or REFRESH button on your browser.