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In Reply to: RE: Adjectives vs. Measurements posted by MarkJohns on January 30, 2016 at 12:31:37
I know of no speaker/audio system /recording capable of matching the true sound and power of a grand piano , unless , well, if playing "Mary had a little lamb" ...
:)
Edits: 01/30/16Follow Ups:
The perceived power of a musical instrument is definitely an issue, it is a characteristic of the instrument's tone. Tone is not just spectral distribution, there's more too it. Tone is one of the four basic elements of music. Therefore if the tone is wrong, it's not high fidelity. A grand piano in a home fills up one end of a large room with sound while an expensive hi fi system no matter what its spectral balance can't. Not even close. And yes I do own a Steinway grand piano myself.
The problem of recording and reproducing musical performances with high fidelity begins with a complete understanding of the physics of sound and acoustics and ends with an understanding of the capabilities and limitations of human hearing. It has nothing to do with tubes versus transistors, analog versus digital, this capacitor versus that one. It is strictly about sound. I'd give out the answer but you can see from a certain physicist's comments earlier today that they are so snooty I figure they should get the answer themselves. If you really are a physicist, the right answer really shouldn't be that hard to find. I've known a lot of physicists in my life, even roomed with one in college for two years. Every one I knew or saw on TV including my professors were wackos.
Even a solo violin will do the job in a moderate size room that will strain many systems...but I have heard very credible reproduction of such...I know what it should sound like because I made the recordings of my ex playing a Strad. It was a pain to set the level of the equipment due to the acoustic power of the darn thing and I didn't want to use compression. Some notes made my ears pulsate! I have heard this credibly played back with large line array systems and a couple of horn systems but not with a conventional, average sensitivity speaker regardless of the size.
"It was a pain to set the level of the equipment due to the acoustic power of the darn thing and I didn't want to use compression. "There are several factors at work here. The acoustic power of a violin is the least of them. More important, with regard to the instrument, are the dynamic range and the high peak-to-average ratio of the violin waveshape.
Also, placement of the microphone is key. Too close, and it's unmanagable without limiting and compression, but, too far, and the room takes over and dominates the tonal quality and "presence". And the microphone placement with regard to the violin axis is also key, since the sound is different in different directions.
The sound of the room is also a key factor. Unfortunately, many recordings are made in rooms where the room sound is "not good". This often leads to too close mic placement, which then often leads to improper angular placement.
Lastly, the choice of microphone is important. Some of the Neumann small diaphragm mics are terrible for intruments such as violin and piano, whereas Schoeps and Sennheiser are better.
:)
Edits: 02/13/16
Wait , what ..! So it's been solved , yet Coy .... :)
When you have the wrong answer that doesn't work, instead of continuing to hit your head against a wall that won't budge, there eventually comes a time when you stop, stand back, and start with a clean sheet of paper, no preconceptions, and throw everything you think you knew away. If nothing else, your head will eventually stop hurting. This for most people is a very difficult thing to do. It means questioning your fondest prejudices. But if you can't or won't, you just keep hitting your head against that same brick wall. The technology used today by audiophiles is essentially a refinement of the same technology used 55 years ago at the dawn of stereophonic recordings hitting the mass market. IMO it has reached the limit of what it is capable of and still falls far short of its original promised goal.
> I know of no speaker/audio system /recording capable of matching the true
> sound and power of a grand piano
Exactly the point I made in my article and video interview. I have never
said they sound indistinguishable. While a one-dimensional measurement
like spl or a two-dimensional measurement like frequency response can be
made to match, the reproduced piano still doesn't _sound_ like the real
instrument.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Of the two kinds of problems a high fidelity sound reproduction system has to be able to solve, the "they are here" problem is far easier than the "you are there" problem which also has to somehow recreate the acoustics of a very large room convincingly in a small room. But these systems can't even solve the they are here problem. Yet equipment costing even hundreds of thousands of dollars is lauded in magazine reviews month after month after month, each time better than the last. From the countless reviews giving sterling accolades to this equipment you'd think the problem would have been solved decades ago but the right answer still eludes manufacturers, reviewers, and audiophiles alike. For music lovers as opposed to audiophiles this means live concert performances still have no real challengers when it comes to sound. What is the difference between a music lover and an audiophile? A music lover buys audio equipment to listen to recordings. An audiophile buys recordings to listen to audio equipment. Just compare the investments to see who is which. Too bad, the real thing is far superior to the poor facsimiles even though hope springs eternal with audiophiles having money constantly burning a hole in their pocket just waiting for a chance to buy the next silver bullet.
How many SOTA systems have you heard ....
Well let's see, I heard Ralph Glasgal's Ambiophonic system a couple of times. There has to be a million dollars worth of equipment tied up in it. It was very interesting in it's unique spacial effects but otherwise unconvincing. The monster Soundlabs electrostatic speakers were very clear but even with the help of a subwoofer was bass shy.
I heard a lot of equipment at the VTV show in Piscataway NJ about 8 years ago including Audio Note's TOTL equipment. I was underwhelmed and in met Peter Qvortrup. I didn't much like him. I surprised myself in being able to identify by listening alone what was probably the only solid state amplifier in the whole place that day. It reminded me why I switched to solid state in 1968 and never looked back. I heard a lot of other very expensive and unimpressive equipment there too that day.
When Harvey Radio was still in business not far from where I live in NJ I heard the best system they had, a pair of $10,000 Martin Logan Summit speakers powered by a Krell amplifier, a McIntosh preamp, and a McIntosh CD player. I thought it sounded awful. I listened to their recording of a piano and violin. There were five serious FR problems I counted and the bass was particularly disappointing. The treble sounded weird too although like most electrostatic speakers the overall sound was very clear. I don't listen to other people's equipment much anymore. I was going to hear a pair of Revel Salon Ultima 2s to find out what impressed JA so much but never got around to it. On the phone the guy who owned the store was ready to sell them to me for a mere $16,000 without quibbling, I think about a 5 or 6 thousand dollar discount. As high end speakers go these days, that's not a lot of money.
Audio shows are disasters really , best to find some serious Philes and go from there , apart from your first mention you have not really heard a SOTA setup , a true SOTA system has the full whammy , room, acoustics , electrical, software, front end, pre stage , amplfication and speakers.90% shown at shows are disasters really , hard to be impressed if exposed. If truly seeking top tier you can walk past point source speakers with the rare exeption (horns ). SP gave PS Audio BHK amp a good rating maybe Arnie might invite you over for a listen , he can be a thorny basturd , but who knows.
John (as well as the others) refuses to acknowledge the Gen1 's any more , I guess Gary Koh is not a member .. :)
Anyway I'm not in total disagreement with your assessments , But IMO you do need to experience a few SOTA setup before solving the problem .. :)
Edits: 01/30/16
Arnie Nudell and Paul McGowan live in Colorado a couple of thousand miles from me. I don't intend to make the trip.
I've looked at the design of the Gen 1.2. It's the latest iteration of the Infinity IRS concept. Paul McGowan acquired a pair of IRS series V which Arnie helped him restore. He even rebuilt his sound room for them and has a series of videos on YouTube that allows you to follow its progress. If I liked the Gen 1.2 I'd built my own version. The midrange looks to me exactly like the B&G RD75 line array ribbon which Arnie helped design. For tweeters I'd probably go with something like the Beston RT003C ribbons in a line array. I would not use the BHK/Nudell woofer design. BHK designed the servo system which I think is unnecessary. He published data for it. IMO believe it or not, I think the enclosure is too small, as large as it is. It achieves an open loop F3 of around 60 hz. I think I could do as well or better with some old restored AR 12" drivers. 6 per channel is overkill for even the largest room in my house, 12 per channel is ridiculous. I think I could build a pair for around $15K - $20K, maybe less. I'd use active crossovers and equalization, and multiple amps. Paul McGowan says his IRS sound best using two BHK amps, one per channel in a mono mode. The woofers also have their own dedicated servo amps in all of the IRS and Gen 1.1 and 1.2 speakers.
"But IMO you do need to experience a few SOTA setup before solving the problem "
What makes you think I haven't solved it already? What do I listen to? My own designs and no they will not be manufactured for sale. I build them exclusively for my own use.
Sounds like exclusive bespoke stuff , if only others were doing this ... :)
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