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In Reply to: RE: Good Form? posted by davidbeinct on January 22, 2016 at 05:28:23
An absolutely mean spirited, hipster piece that should never have been published. Plays right into the cliche of Audiophiles and arrogant, smug, and clueless audiophile reporters.And to the best of my knowledge, this is unprecedented..publishing a screed against a popular artist after their passing. An artist who brought joy to millions to boot.
I worked professionally with Glenn Frey and I can tell you he was more dedicated to his craft that anyone and had more talent in his pinky that anyone at Stereophile.
And to add insult to injury, neither the writer or the editor corrected the reference to Fly Like An Eagle. Sad.
Edits: 01/22/16Follow Ups:
Has it been established that Robert Baird is an audiophile?
The error in the article is very unprofessional and typical of this magazine. Also, upon further reflection, I think the publishing of the article at this time was in poor taste. Waiting a month or two would have been wise.
You say that G.F. was more dedicated to his craft than anyone. Compared to what other artists? And last time I looked Stereophile writers didnt produce music so this comparison is ridiculous. A person in the biz should, I think, have the ability to recognize a journeyman performer and writer.
A visceral dislike of The Eagles is nothing new and certainly not a "hipster" phenomenon. I just did a search on the worst rock bands in history and The Eagles were on every list that included bands that went back to the 1970s. The reasons for this dislike are obvious and they are a deserving recipient.
I dont object to people like this band, nor do I look down upon Eagles fans, but I will pontificate on the issue of quality because this band exemplifies what was and still is wrong with so much of popular music. They were a very successful but they were not a band that produced a quality product.
I dont think that taking shots at a person's professional life is the same as discussing their quality as a human being. Having said this, I am sorry that you may have lost a friend or at least someone you respected.
I hope I can put my thoughts on this in some cohesive fashion because I feel like the freshman in a room full of post graduates. There are many of you who had more than a passing friendship or working relationship with Frey, so I am speaking from a purely fan/music lover position. There are a number of persons outraged, disappointed & offended. Some are unfazed & some amused. The one thing (to me) that they all have in common is that they have simply, or not so, voiced their opinions about the article/reviewer. It is only an opinion. I happen to share the opinion that it (the article) was poorly timed, seemed to me a little mean spirited and to me, was just wrong in his judgement of the Eagles, their music, talent & influence. But hey, that's MY opinion (which of course is more right than Baird's). To wrap up this too long & insignificant OPINION, I'll just make an uneducated observation. Did anyone else think too much hatred was addressed to the idea that the Eagles were a "less than decent band" because the radio overplayed their music, which was the result of jillions of sales, because people all over the world loved their music. Am I wrong in that assessment, or have I oversimplified it? As I read the review, that thought kept popping up, that the Eagles were disliked because they were too popular. Sorry if I missed the point entirely, but like I said, I'm looking through the eyes of a freshman, so to speak, albeit a 66 yr. old freshman. Thanks, Dave.
Everyone thinks I'm strange except my friends deep inside the earth
I think that most of the outrage is the results of Baird's condemnation of the fans. The "outraged" are, I think, at least in part being opportunistic.
Overplay isnt what makes this music bad, it simply makes the music worse. There are plenty of good songs that have been overplayed, but I dont think any of these songs were done by The Eagles.
It really seems to me like Baird burned the flag or something.
Read the piece again, and this time don't read anything into it that isn't there.Baird's second paragraph goes into at least *some* detail about the MUSIC on the Eagles' albums, and he presents his *opinion*. Nowhere does he say anything remotely like the reason the Eagles' music sucks - or why he doesn't like some of their recordings - is because they were extremely popular and/or were played a helluva lot on the radio.
The obvious points he's making are: in Baird's opinion much of the Eagles' recordings are pap which doesn't stand the test of time; the Eagles hits have been heard so many times that he (and in his view many others) can't stand hearing them for the 5,000th time.
It also seems obvious to me there should not be a requirement that an article published soon after somebody's death has to avoid negative comments on any/all of the dead person's music, whether it was popular or not.
I suspect there will be many obits/articles presenting nothing but positive views of Frey/Eagles. This one ain't a glorifying obit. Big deal.
Edits: 01/24/16
Perhaps I think Rick Wald's music sucks. To drive the point home, I think I'll wait until the day of your death, for maximum exposure, to write about how your music sucks in a leading industry magazine. Just to make sure any sympathizers know that you suck. Nobody will think I'm mean spirited or anything. It's just an opinion.
You're welcome to express your opinion of my music here, in a hifi publication, in a jazz mag or anywhere else - while I'm alive or two seconds after my death.Ya know I've been a jazz musician for over 45 years. To say the least, I'm accustomed to 99.99999999% of the public either totally ignoring or actively disliking my music.
I suspect a negative article published in S'phile soon after my death would be like water off a duck's ass to those who like my music. Hey, luckily S'phile wouldn't even review my cd's :-)
Edits: 01/24/16
Would you walk into a wake and interrupt the mourners to bash a dead person's career? Would you take out an obit in your local newspaper to let everyone know that you're not a fan of the deceased? Of course not. I'm pretty sure you're above that, at least based on your posting history here. Robert Baird apparently is not. The fact that Glen Frey is well known and successful doesn't excuse people coming out of the woodwork to shit on him as soon as he passes.
And just to clear the air, what I've heard of your music I've liked. Though I've never heard you live (if you're ever playing in Boston...). I was just making a hypothetical point, so I hope you don't take it personally.
Well, I just don't think the content is so offensive. I think people are overreacting. The article is far from a personal attack on Frey, and contains positive comments about some of the Eagles' recordings along with the negative comments.
I wonder what time period after somewhat dies the inmates who objected to Baird's piece would find acceptable. Whatever it'd be - a month, 2 months, a year - would be arbitrary, and probably different from inmate to inmate.
Jeez, I'm kinda surprised anybody cares what's said in an S'phile opinion piece about music/musicians. I pay virtually no attention to what they say about hifi gear, let alone music :-)
No, of course I didn't take offense, Dave. I understand where you're coming from.
If Baird had written a rant about the Eagles and Stereophile had published it at some random other time, few would read it and nobody would care. The problem with this is that it's a slam piece hidden behind a title that made me think it was going to be an obituary or eulogy. I think it was mean spirited take the opportunity to write an obit and use it to insult the dead artist and his fans and mourners. Sorry you can't see that.
As I said, I understand where you and others are coming from regarding the timing. Do you seriously believe I'm such a complete dolt that your point escapes me? Am I allowed to NOT be offended, or do we all have to have the same reaction?
I just don't give a shit what Baird says, nor when he says it. Never have. If he'd written a piece praising everything Frey recorded/performed it wouldn't matter to me, and nothing in the piece he actually did submit matters to me. If possible I'd care even less about what he said the day after a jazz musician's death.
My posts are not a defense of S'phile, JA or Baird. I didn't view the piece as such a hatchet job, but even if I did, it would be of utterly no consequence to me - whether it was published now or a year from now. I wouldn't even have read the piece if I hadn't seen the thread (with link) here and wondered what the, ahh, stir was about.
Posted anywhere else on AA this would have faded into oblivion almost immediately.
Posted on Critics a mountain is made of an ant hole.
The level of self importance/self righteousness on this board is stunning.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
> > Jeez, I'm kinda surprised anybody cares what's said in an S'phile opinion piece about music/musicians. I pay virtually no attention to what they say about hifi gear, let alone music :-)
First comment is that apparently the subject has drawn your attention to the degree that you've felt the need to make a number of comments of your own in this thread.
> > I wonder what time period after somewhat dies the inmates who objected to Baird's piece would find acceptable.
I've already given my two cents -- I think they should have waited one, maybe two months to publish it. The article appeared almost immediately upon the report of his death.
Keep in mind that while I'm OK with the Eagles, I don't consider myself a fan. They were just part of the music scene back in the 70s when I was younger. I don't think I've elected to intentionally play one of their songs for 15, 20 years or more.
However, the article did strike me as rude in terms of timing. Nothing more, but also nothing less. Hardly a hanging offense, but unfortunately it is increasingly typical these days.
nt
Of course, there is a certain irony that the reaction of others to a subject you claim shouldn't be of interest has resulted in a half-dozen posts from you.
As someone with a rather neutral opinion of the Eagles, but who thinks the timing of the article was rather tasteless, I don't see much difference between those who were bothered by the article and your apparent offense at their offense.
You seem fixated on the # of my posts rather than the content. So far all you've done is state your opinion about the timing of the piece - as I've done - and counted my posts.
"I don't see much difference between those who were bothered by the article and your apparent offense at their offense."
I don't care.
A few seconds using "CTRL-F" to find the number of times you've commented on a subject you claim not to care about is hardly a fixation on my part. If you truly don't care, why are you in this discussion? That remains unanswered.
Increasingly I think all of this is more about insulting the fans than it is about insulting the band.
and more like going to a wake and insulting the mourners?
...upset mourners. As already pointed out, timing is everything and this piece was just plain poorly timed. Not a particularly entertaining or informative read either: unnecessary.
Um...ouch!
Half way decent attempt at meaningless psychobabble. No, he is not wrong.
Apparently you don't even know the meaning of psychobabble.
You are no freshman, Dave..you just about nailed it. Bullseye.
Thanks Isaac, I wasn't trying to create conflict, but I suppose the question I asked in my post did leave me open. My wife & I were talking the other day about how it seems what used to be common courtesy & values have eroded. Of course, I suspect that's the lament of every aging generation. I'm so proud of my son-in-law, who after 6 yrs of marriage still opens doors for my daughter. But I digress. To me, the very fact that the Eagles music has been played so much verifies the quality of their music. Now please, I hope I didn't open another door that will have someone say "well Dave, by your criteria, the "Happy Birthday" song is the greatest piece of music ever! Nope, I'm just not smart enough to put it any other way.
Everyone thinks I'm strange except my friends deep inside the earth
First, I knew Frey professionally.
Secondly, you must think a lot of your self to be the arbiter of what is a "quality product". I know big time musicians who would give their left arms to be able to write and record a track like "Tequila Sunrise" and dozens more. So reality check.
Lastly, I see now, there was no error..it was the way the paragraph was structured. If you read it again, The "Fly Like An Eagle" mention was a reference to Steve Miller, mentioned in the previous paragraph. But because he strung it together with two Eagles albums, it was confusing.
I cant imagine any serious creative musician taking any of the mid to late Eagles work seriously. Also I have the support of just about many serious listeners and every critic to back my condemnation of The Eagles. But your statement about "product" speaks to the heart of this issue I think. But you are correct in that nobody really cares what I think or you for that matter. I cant imagine what I will post after Jimmy Buffett dies.
Since you seem to have high standards regarding language and editing, here's a list of all of the mistakes you made in this post:
"Cant" instead of "can't," twice.
It's not The Eagles, but simply Eagles, so a lowercase "the" would be correct.
You write that you "have the support of just about many serious listeners"? What? Is that a sentence?
In the same (sort of) sentence, you claim to have the support of "every critic." How was this determined? Did you poll every critic? I'm a longtime music writer/critic and enjoy several Eagles records quite a lot. Sweeping generalizations make for poor writing.
You're welcome.
Are you sure these are the only problems? My writing is getting better. Thanks!
Your opinion on music is as valid as anyone else's. I have nothing positive or negative to say about the Eagles, but if I did nobody should take it as anything more than a statement of preference. Nobody really gives a shit what "serious listeners" (whatever that is) or critics think. In my opinion, art criticism (of any form) is the most useless "profession" on the planet. But this is especially true with music.
Wow you get out much - what a pile of BS!
Mr. Garvey; You have my condolences. To have worked with greatness such as Mr. Frey's - WOW!!!
I just wish all the grave dancers would consider their words before they hit send.
I didn't see anything like this level of vitriol two weeks ago with David Bowie's passing (not that there should have been).
It's not like Robert Baird added anything to what has been written many of times before. Hey; When you have no original thoughts, just keep recycling the old ones Bob.
You are right in your assessment; "Arrogant, smug, clueless, audiophile reporters"...........And they wonder why this is a dying hobby.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Perhaps their view has changed, but one of the most severe critics of The Eagles throughout the 1970s/80s was Rolling Stone magazine. I always found their criticism curious. Perhaps the acerbic Henley pissed off the editor. Whatever the reason I got the impression the cause of said criticism was personal rather than artistic.
Let me repeat, I have found Mr. Bairds' profiles of under represented artists compelling, THAT is why I find this piece so disappointing. If that is how he felt fine, but he should have been put on ice his editor.It is beyond baffling how this could proceed. As you said, words should be considered before published.
The Eagles crafted their music the old fashioned way, with talent, no Auto Tune, no Pro Tools, no song doctors, etc.
And yes..where is the precedent for negative pieces of musical artists who have passed on, with the body still warm...?
Edits: 01/22/16
Mr. Garvey;
I just posed a hypothetical question to Mr. Atkinson;
If one of yor writers panned the Moody Blues after the death of your countryman Justin Hayward, would the piece ever see the light of day?
I'm guessing not!
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Many years from now people will still remember Glen Frey and will never have heard of Robert Baird. Most haven't heard of Robert Baird now. Thank you for the music Glen.
Indeed. But to be honest, I have found Baird's musical insight to be quite impressive. That is why this screed is somewhat shocking. I don't blame him. Editors are supposed to be a buffer between writer and reader. That system broke down and the editor failed. To not understand this was in incredibly bad taste and just counter any common decency.
> Editors are supposed to be a buffer between writer and reader. That system
> broke down and the editor failed.
A buffer, yes, but not a censor. This confusion between these roles has
been expressed before on the Asylum. If what is expressed in Stereophile
or on its website is felt by some to be offensive, then I regret that but
I don't feel not giving offense to be a relevant goal for a publication.
Did Robert Baird's essay make a relevant point about the Eagles? Yes.
Was it inappropriate for it to have been published at this time? When
_would_ be the appropriate time? Next week? Next year? And if the
answer from the more passionate Eagles fans is "never," then we are
back to the fact that I don't regard avoiding giving offense as a
relevant goal for a publication.
A couple of points: Robert Baird's opinion piece was triggered by Glenn
Frey's death but was not _about_ Glenn Frey. Also, there was no implication
that the song "Fly Like an Eagle" was recorded by the Eagles. Robert had
referenced the Steve Miller Band as another example of a band, like the
Eagles, whose recordings had been over-played on the radio. I see that
you had acknowledged that in another posting, but this response is
addressed to all the inmates.
And to address the poster who declared that I would not publish a piece
on the death of a member of an English band like the Moody Blues, where
did _that_ come from? I routinely publish opinions that differ from my
own - again, I don't censor my writers' opinions, not on music and not
on the audio products they review.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
I won't wade into the waters regarding an editor's responsibility to green light opinion pieces in his or her magazine, but I agree that the piece was not particularly well timed. The fact is the Eagle's catalog has been in existence and unchanged for many years, many of which Baird has been writing for Stereophile. My question is why Baird never got around to writing the piece, or at least it being published, until Frey died? Were the opinions expressed relevant before Frey died? Yes. Did Frey's death trigger the piece? Likely. I don't go to a man's funeral demanding the widow pay me the $10.00 the decedent owed me. I'll let it rest for a while.
Secondly, I don't understand the argument that the Eagles' catalog is played too much on radio. I am not an Eagles fan, but I am a fan of the free market, and I do believe radio stations generally play what their listeners like, much as audio magazines publish reviews which their readers like. The listeners of those stations don't seem to think the Eagles are overplayed anymore than most Stereophile readers did not think there were too many Musical Fidelity or Music Hall reviews when Sam Tellig was writing for the magazine.
My guess is that Baird does not like the Eagles, and so believes they are played too much on the radio. My guess is that if Baird was running a classic radio station to put food on the table, and had to answer to the stockholders, he too would be give the listeners a heavy does of the Eagles.
But; Do you routinely publish critical opinions of an artist/band so soon (a day or two) after that person has died?
It's piss poor behavior period. It also looks as if Stereo pile is trying "cash in" on the un-timely death of Mr. Frey by printing a controversial article.
Another thing; Who on your staff decides if a artist/band is over played on radio?
Note: They call it POP because it's P-O-P-U-L-A-R - That means people like it.......A lot. Judging from album sales, there are 100,000,000 people on the planet that disagree with you and Robert Baird.
Don't worry about it though, with a massive circulation of 75,000 copies, Stereophile sells just about as many copies as The Eagles sold albums in a day...........
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
I'll have to disagree. I was brought up to understand that there was an appropriate time and place for certain types of statements. One of the social conventions was to not speak ill of people immediately following their death. (Sure, there are exceptions, but we're not talking about a murderer in this case.)The piece was negative and condescending. I'm not an Eagles fan -- it has probably been 15 or 20 years since I've spun one of their records -- but I recognize their place in life when I was younger. The piece should have been put off for a month or two.
I realize your natural instinct is to defend your writer, your magazine and your editing choice, but it is pretty obvious that a number of us out here thought "how rude".
Edits: 01/24/16
We will disagree on this. As in life, timing is everything.Secondly, it is NOT censorship to reject this piece. You are not running a news publication. You are under no obligation to publish every piece submitted. I am sure their are piles of reviews and columns in the scrap heap that never saw the light of day for some reason or another. So, let's not hide behind the higher calling of being anti censorship. I know plenty of writers in the entertainment industry and not every piece they submit runs. Not even close.
There is no confusion.
Also, where is the precedent in your magazine for pieces like this, published immediately after the death of a so called "over played" artist?
Edits: 01/24/16
> it is NOT censorship to reject this piece. You are not running a news
> publication. You are under no obligation to publish every piece
> submitted.
Thank you for explaining to me what my job entails. Please forgive me for
believing I know more about this subject than you do.
> I am sure their are piles of reviews and columns in the scrap heap that
> never saw the light of day for some reason or another.
Actually, no. If I commission a piece, it runs.
> where is the precedent in your magazine for pieces like this, published
> immediately after the death of a so called "over played" artist?
See Fred Kaplan's obituary of Dave Brubeck, linked below.
> We will disagree on this.
Indeed we shall.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
And those two things put together might make people think the plan was "we will get more pub if we write something shocking so as to not be in with the 2500 other posts/pieces written on this artists passing"
Fairly classless act by a mag that worked so hard to be classy over the years.
One of a growing number of items that will make the closing of Stereophile's doors less sad for many of us when that day comes.
Wrong. People die every day and all of them are flawed. No musician deserves the kind of unqualified hosannas that nearly all of them get when they die, and the machine-gunned praise gets tiresome and rings false.
I love David Bowie and he was a game-changer in many regards, but in the wake of his death you'd think he never recorded a bad song. He actually recorded a lot of poor albums, in my opinion, just like any other musician. No one has a perfect catalog.
And when McCartney dies, his endless slog of crap solo records will also be ignored. But why? He made them. They're part of his legacy, just as Frey's sub-par work was part of a legacy that also included some outstanding work.
It's dishonest to pretend someone was an unqualified genius just because they die. Baird had some nice things to say about Frey and the Eagles, and he had some critical things to say. That's it. End of story.
> > Wrong. People die every day and all of them are flawed. No musician
> > deserves the kind of unqualified hosannas that nearly all of them get
> > when they die, and the machine-gunned praise gets tiresome and rings false.
> > It's dishonest to pretend someone was an unqualified genius just because they die.
I didn't see anyone suggest that Frey was an "unqualified genius" or advocate only that should have been said about him. However, there is a difference between giving someone "unqualified hosannas" and the snarky article Stereophile posted one day after the report of his death.
A story immediately on someone's passing doesn't need to be a gossamer fairy tale, but it also should not be taking swipes at them. There is plenty of time later on to publish the autopsy report of their life.
However, given that so many of the social conventions that used to make things a bit more civil are now out of fashion, the article wasn't a surprise in many ways. However, without doing an exact count, in looking at the comments posted at the Stereophile web site, I'd estimate that about three-quarters of them thought it was in poor taste. Obviously JA and some think otherwise, but I suspect they have taken note of the reaction of many of their readers..
On a scale of 1 to 10. how much less?
Never realized how much I tend to agree with Rick W.
I guess the third failure was the cover, they needed a strong cover along the lines of our supermarket tabloids to stir up interest in the shocking thing, but they didn't do that.Daniel
Edits: 01/26/16 01/26/16
> I guess the third failure was the cover...
What cover? The Eagles piece that has gotten everyone's panties in a wad
was published on the Stereophile website.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
To even mention the Late Glen Frey in an article that had NO COVER?
Poor form.
Yet another "One of a growing number of items that will make the closing of Stereophile's
doors less sad for many of us when that day comes."
Plus, can you do something about that font you use online; it's annoying.
Makes me sad...
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
> To even mention the Late Glen Frey in an article that had NO COVER?
> Poor form.
Perhaps it's time for the mob to lay down their pitchforks and torches?
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
and it has a million faces.
All Things Must Pass.
So too shall this.
But don't drain the fire buckets just yet.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Perhaps now you will think twice before you publish. It is not censorship. It is about class.
Or it could be about the missed opportunity for a cover along the lines of the more classy supermarket tabloids and scandal sheets.
Daniel
What difference does it make? This isn't a real subject, it can be embellished.
Daniel
> One of a growing number of items that will make the closing of
> Stereophile's doors less sad for many of us when that day comes.
Thank you for your comment.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
but you got this all wrong. Just admit it. I guess the Eagle's didn't pay for enough advertising in your fast becoming rag. BTW, I've subscribed for many years...maybe not much longer. When was the last thing written that anybody under 60 years old would care about? Bring on some new blood and get rid of the old...sometimes that includes those at the top.
> I guess the Eagle's [sic] didn't pay for enough advertising in your fast
> becoming rag.
Please give this tired old canard a rest.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
So you commissioned a slam piece to run as an obit?
And part of your defense is that you've done it before?
I doubt that's what you meant, but that's how it's coming across.
I think we're just looking for some common sense discretion.
You can dig in and cling in to your position, and hide your head in the sand, but based on the comments section of the column, and this thread, you are absolutely wrong.And if very piece you commission runs, you are in a majority of one, and a saint.
Thank you for the the Dave Brubeck link.
Edits: 01/24/16
JA fails as editor on a regular basis and at various levels.
nt
+1
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
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