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Hi, I just read Decembers Stereophile.John Atkinson and Herb Reichert wrote reviews on 2 speaker systems.The YG Acoustics Carmel 2 and the GoldenEar Triton 5. Both reviews had there ups and downs about the 2 speaker systems, mostly favorable. But both men in 1 issue made all other critical reviews moot in my view. Why? They both stated that every speaker system performs differently with every different amplifier. There's a long list of good amps out there. So which one do you perform the test with? There are more reviewers opinions possible than the German Enigma machine had codes.This makes all the reviews a moot question unless 1 standard amp is used for all speaker reviews. John Atkinson liked a certain integrated amp over some heavy hitters in his review. John didn't name it unless you look carefully at (associated equipment).Primaluna should be dancing a jig!.....Herb Reichert concluded the amp/speaker miss match in his review. I changed the theme of my letter when I read the Golden Tritons Sandy Gross's letter to the editor. Those adjectives!,and Herb stated he was toning them down. What is a faux clarity in the Celetion SL-6? How about the quotidian and sublime. Herbs history of audio is superb as well as his honesty. Sometimes I think he has lived his dream of giant spliffs, over proof rum, and voodoo soceresses. I would not write if I had not read, and I read because I really like the mag. Now, what speaker should I use to audition an amp? Specs don't matter as in the Rossi integrated,right?....thanks for hearing me out....sincerely Mark Korda
Follow Ups:
What I found puzzling was Atkinsons assertion (confession) that the music played by the reviewer is intended to accentuate the speakers strengths. Does it follow then that music not played is not played to avoid exposing a weakness? Among you fanboys was this understood, is it accepted and does this seem logical?
It seemed obvious to me that JA didnt like the speaker and tried as hard as possible to avoid admitting this. I never read what Reichert has to say. I'll bet Dudley hired Reichert and got him really cheap.
> What I found puzzling was Atkinsons assertion (confession) that the music
> played by the reviewer is intended to accentuate the speakers strengths.
Not what I "confessed" or even wrote. Time to reach for a can of Troll-B-Gon?
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Well you can call me names all you want but I am a subscriber and a very unhappy one at that. I wont be renewing.
I believe that what you wrote in the last section of your review is pretty obvious. The meaning couldnt be more clear. Why dont you just admit you dont like the speaker?
On top of all this silliness you claim synergy by using a tubed integrated push-pull amp! So you find a solution by adding mud to a lean bass and additional (but pleasant) coloration to an already colored midrange.
I have heard YG many times and the best I have heard them was with Vitus electronics. But I have to read 15 Ayre reviews while countless other manufacturers like Vitus are ignored.
> Well you can call me names all you want but I am a subscriber and a very
> unhappy one at that.
I used the word "troll" because you are exhibiting the classic signs of
a troll: confrontational posting; misstating what someone else wrote;
using loaded language like "confess," "silliness," and "admit"; using
a loaded user name; etc etc. You wish me to address your points, then
clean up your act first, please.
> I won't be renewing.
It used to be thought that the customer was always right. But not so
in your case, I am afraid.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Use your "enter" key.
Press it once and you're on a new line. Press it twice and you've got yourself the space for a paragraph, and the gratitude of many Asylum readers!
"You won't come back from Fletcher-Munson curve"-Jan and Dean
...a retired school teacher?
Sadly, not retired, and certainly not a school teacher.
The original poster plead ignorance in how to create paragraphs in his bowl of alphabet soup looking posts (see link below). I suppose I could have said "Google it!", but I was feeling helpful. What can I say?
"You won't come back from Fletcher-Munson curve"-Jan and Dean
So what are you left with? What is the bottom line? One person's opinion of the equipment he had assembled in his room which could and probably will sound different in your room even if it is the same equipment. But the chances of even that are one in a gazillion. Every change you make to what he had, every difference gives different results. And if it's true that it's a matter of preference and the measurements of certain equipment doesn't necessarily correlate to what someone "likes" then what is the value of the reviews? In fact all the reviewer has to do is move the speakers around in his room and both the measured and perceived sound will change.
So how does one go about becoming a shopper? I think it may start with a dart board, a blindfold, and a few cold pints.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
(nt)
nt
try it! you know you want to!
N/T
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Hi Mark Johns, or vise versa...Exactamindo! John Atkinson I apologize for my wise crack about the Primaluna. You mentioned it in detail and I missed that. I am guilty of only reading the conclusions. Gary, I never learned or had to type. I don't know how to indent for a paragraph. Will you give me a lesson if you have the time, Here's my e-mail (kordamark@gmail.com).Thanks Gary. I don't know how to use the spell check either. I'm using my grand fathers dictionary by my computer, signed 1951. Now here is where I'd like to make a paragraph......A few questions to John Atkinson. On the YG Carmel. Why were you giving such exact,to the inches, room position. We out here don't know the exact geometric area or what kind of furniture you have in your room. I have milk crates for shelves and wire rope spindals for coffie tables and a real old futon. Will those specified measurements work in my room? Is a 24 grand speaker system supposed to be weak in the 40hz region? I know the Carmel is made out of aluminum but it looks very familar to a DIY Frugal Horn which can be made with a sheet of plywood from Home Depot. The innards should be shown for that kind of money like Magico does. Frugals do use a co-ax but I've seen other 2 way set ups used. What stipulates a woofer (break in). Once it's broken in when does it start to go down hill, or does a woofer just keep improving until the day it dies?...If a tweeter blew out in the Carmel how much cost and effort to get at it would be involved, I never saw the back of the system. Do you take the whole back off? I don't mean to be grumpy but when I get into my Willie Nelson cigarettes it gets my mind wondering...sincerely...Mark Korda
Imagine if no two color TV sets looked alike, everyone different from every other one. Imagine if the color balance changed from one channel to another, one program on the same channel to another. It would drive you crazy trying to make adjustments to get each one right. At least they had adjustments because that's how it really was in the early days of color TV in the US. Only they fixed that engineering problem and now you could theoretically get them to all look pretty much alike at least insofar as color balance, saturation, brightness, and contrast. Unfortunately you can't do the same with hi fi audio systems. They all sound different and even the same equipment sounds different from one place to another. So where does that leave you? Perhaps that explains why so many audiophiles are constantly shopping and swapping. Something is always wrong. Expensive habit.
> John Atkinson I apologize for my wise crack about the Primaluna. You
> mentioned it in detail and I missed that. I am guilty of only reading
> the conclusions.
No problem. I just wanted to make sure inmates knew that I did identify
the tubed amplifier, that I wasn't trying to hide anything.
> On the YG Carmel. Why were you giving such exact,to the inches, room
> position. We out here don't know the exact geometric area or what kind
> of furniture you have in your room.
I have written about my room several times in the magazine. You can see
photos at the link below. (Scroll down to the third row of images.)
> Will those specified measurements work in my room?
Not if your room is very different from mine.
> Is a 24 grand speaker system supposed to be weak in the 40Hz region?
It shouldn't be. But with the right amplifier and music that doesn't go
low in frequency - as I say in the review, bass guitar and kick drum have
the bulk of their energy higher than 40Hz - while the Carmel 2 doesn't
have any low-bass output, it can sound convincing.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Hi Mark Johns, or vise versa...
Exactamindo!
ohn Atkinson I apologize for my wise crack about the Primaluna. You mentioned it in detail and I missed that. I am guilty of only reading the conclusions. Gary, I never learned or had to type. I don't know how to indent for a paragraph. Will you give me a lesson if you have the time, Here's my e-mail (kordamark@gmail.com).
Thanks Gary.
I don't know how to use the spell check either. I'm using my grand fathers dictionary by my computer, signed 1951. Now here is where I'd like to make a paragraph......
A few questions to John Atkinson. On the YG Carmel. Why were you giving such exact,to the inches, room position. We out here don't know the exact geometric area or what kind of furniture you have in your room. I have milk crates for shelves and wire rope spindals for coffie tables and a real old futon. Will those specified measurements work in my room?
Is a 24 grand speaker system supposed to be weak in the 40hz region?
I know the Carmel is made out of aluminum but it looks very familar to a DIY Frugal Horn which can be made with a sheet of plywood from Home Depot. The innards should be shown for that kind of money like Magico does.
Frugals do use a co-ax but I've seen other 2 way set ups used. What stipulates a woofer (break in). Once it's broken in when does it start to go down hill, or does a woofer just keep improving until the day it dies?...
If a tweeter blew out in the Carmel how much cost and effort to get at it would be involved, I never saw the back of the system. Do you take the whole back off? I don't mean to be grumpy but when I get into my Willie Nelson cigarettes it gets my mind wondering...
sincerely...
Mark Korda
Go Rossi ......
...any competent reviewer will try at least two different amplifiers with a speaker under test and two different speakers to review an amplifier or they aren't doing their job.
Any competent Audio review would entail having the opinions of more than one reviewer ....
Regards
Btw , local B&N is almost completly devoid of audio "stuff" , ahhh well time to renew sub if nothing on the stand...
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/15/15 11/15/15 11/15/15
...about more than one reviewer, but with logistical issues and deadlines, it's not easy to pull off.
At least Stereophile has follow-ups.
If you find this situation baffling, confusing, misleading, and it leaves you wondering how to make sense of it all, I'm with you.
Read the review of the YG Sonja 1.3. Of 3 very expensive amplifiers John Atkinson had available to him, only one was best suited to it, it cost $44,000 which I suppose is affordable if you can buy a speaker that costs over $100,000 a pair, and it was less than entirely satisfactory. I know I'd be disappointed if I'd spent that much money and not been entirely happy with the results. Yet John Atkinson said this was a new benchmark in speaker performance as I recall it. It makes no sense to me. I'm just hoping when he reviews the Yamaha NS 5000 he compares its performance with the Revel Saloon Ultima II since they cost about the same and I recall he liked that one a lot. Maybe one of these days I'll hunt down a pair but I'll wait for the NS 5000 before I make any decision if I decide to buy anything at all.
you continue to think this is a cowboy movie speaker. :)
Saloon Ultima II
It's the Salon Ultima2
and give their (frequently tedious and longwinded) impressions of their opinion
regarding the experience and compare it to (remembered) past experiences.
ALWAYS have a salt shaker handy when reading!
If the criteria were to compare every possible amp with every possible set of
speakers (plus all essential components), reviewers would STILL be reviewing
combinations of components through 1966 (and I just know, somewhere,
someone is doing just that hoping for publication some decade).
THAT won't sell magazines OR keep anyone employed.
Moot point: you can only go so far in this hobby/pursuit before it all becomes redundant.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
> John Atkinson liked a certain integrated amp over some heavy hitters in
> his review. John didn't name it unless you look carefully at (associated
> equipment).
I did name the PrimaLuna amplifier in the review text and even provided
a footnote to the original review by Robert Deutsch.
> They both stated that every speaker system performs differently with
> every different amplifier.
If you read my review more carefully, you will note that the basic
character of the YG loudspeaker remained constant throughout all the
amplifier changes. Each amplifier brought about a slightly different
emphasis in one or more aspects of that character, with the PrimaLuna
giving the best balance of those aspects.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
The item that caught my eye in your review was the identification of a large series capacitor in the network. That's very rarely seen in speaker systems and one wonders why since this is a sealed-box system. I see no good reason for it.
Dave.
"The item that caught my eye in your review was the identification of a large series capacitor in the network. That's very rarely seen in speaker systems and one wonders why since this is a sealed-box system. I see no good reason for it."A large series cap can give a boost at low end where the speaker would other wise be rolling off (series C working into inductive portion of resonant peak). It's not often done because big capacitors with tight tolerances are hard to come by and expensive, and it also messes with group delay of the response.
_
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Edits: 11/15/15
Yes, good point. I've seen that usage on the occasional speaker.
In this case however, the nearfield response measured by JA doesn't exhibit any boost in low end. The flat response corners at 50Hz and heads immediately south from there. It seems to increase the normal roll-off rate from 2nd-order to 3rd-order for no good reason.
Oh well.
Cheers,
Dave.
Loudspeaker designers sometimes know of a synergy with an amp, but some loudspeaker designers are clueless (or just do a very good imitation of being clueless).
BTW, your idea of using "1 standard amp is used for all speaker reviews" is a non-starter, and that is being polite kind and generous. I hope that was in the spirit of, to state the proposition is to refute it.
I have been told that Wilson Audio has a store room of different amps so they can check for drive problems.
One little-considered problem is that loudspeaker designers... want to sell loudspeakers. And so you run across cases (I have seen two with my own eyes and ears) where the designer of a loudspeaker I would objectively consider a difficult load to drive assured the customer, in one case, that a budget integrated from the UK was all they needed, and in another case, that any good home theater amp was all they needed.
Back in the day I saw a Tweeter Etc. salesperson sell Dahlquist DQ-10s with an inexpensive Yamaha receiver that it turned out kept having its protection circuit kick in, DUUUH.
The world being the fallen sinful place that it is, it would take a heart of gold for a loudspeaker designer to say, "Look, I think you would be better off buying one of my models from the middle of my range and not the top of my range, and allocate more of your budget toward source components and amplification and cables."
So, I suspect that there are many cases where a loudspeaker designer might say less than he knows, in the interest of not damping sales.
So, one is left at the tender mercies of retailers, many of whom are in it for love not money, and the more punctilious of audio reviewers.
An example of how time-consuming the chase can be is (if anyone has a complete collection of 1990s-2000 TAS) my "A Stereo for Mr. Stevens" project. Once I pretty much decided on the Shahinian Obelisk Is as King of the Hill, I spent the rest of the time auditioning amplifiers.
If it were easy to do it right, everyone would do it right...
And plaudits to JA for using a perhaps counter-intuitive amplifier choice.
jm
Darn, two speakers I was actually thinking of today. I wonder how many recall the B&W DM70?
I was a bigger fan of the leak sandwich cone drivers and speaker system during that era , i wonder if JA had any real experiences with them in the UK...
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/15/15
One little-considered problem is that loudspeaker designers... want to sell loudspeakers,
So, one is left at the tender mercies of retailers, many of whom are in it for love not money, and the more punctilious of audio reviewers.- jm
Lol .....
Go Rossi ......
Edits: 11/15/15
yes, that's true, but some amps are amenable to drive nearly ANY loudspeaker. that would usually be a powerful SS amp. a powerful tubed amp is usually much more expensive. i am taking the tube vs SS sound out of the equation here.
lower powered tube amps are more subject to variations in sound quality due to impedance induced colorations. i have experienced the receiver shut down effect when i tried to drive Janszen 412HPs with a sherwood s8900a receiver (a very good one). i did this in a showroom and knew that day that my days with the 8900a were numbered. another foolish demo was a dealer attempting to drive DQ10s with the Stax amplifier.
i couldn't afford said Janszens and stuck with my stacked Dynaco A25s but migrated to separates and haven't looked back.
a speaker maker should be willing to suggest amps (more than one) in the same league with their review unit so as to somewhat guide the reviewer and eventually the consumer to a successful mating.
so many times i have heard someone say that a given component sounds like excrement only to admonish them because i had heard the component PROPERLY demonstrated. that list includes Wilson Audio and Magico speakers. even the dealers that SHOULD know how to properly set up a demo before allowing prospective buyers to hear them.
i also realize that this can conflict with the dealers's current product lineup and associated tsuris to be dealt with regarding to the suppliers involved with him.
unless you live in a LARGE metropolitan area like LA or NY, hearing a proper demo on a given product is a crap shoot. the flourishing of the audio shows is a good substitute for the availability of dealer density
...regards...tr
Speakers with low/average sensitivity and low-dipping impedance curves with difficult phase angles absolutely NEED a powerful, stable amp with good current reserves, be it tubed or SS. If they're highly resolving speakers, they can tell you much about the subtle sonic differences among those amps. So if a reviewer or dealer has several appropriate models on hand, he should by all means try them all to find the best synergy.
But if you mate power-hog speakers with an inadequate amp (as some dealers and reviewers apparently still do), you will never hear either the speakers or the amp at their best.
Save the low-powered tube amps for high sensitivity speakers with benign impedance plots. This is the combo where both can shine.
agreed
...regards...tr
.
Paragraphs can be a good thing.
nt
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