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In Reply to: RE: You really don't seem to get the point and have been quite consistant in that regard for months now. posted by Ralph on November 14, 2015 at 13:51:26
and that some amps don't produce audible amounts of harmonic distortion....
try it! you know you want to!
Follow Ups:
The ear is so finely tuned that it can pick them out easily. It does not matter that they might be at a low level- the ones of concern occur in the frequency bands to which the ear is the most sensitive, and in addition it uses those harmonics to calculate volume. Its more sensitive to them than it is the fundamental tones that made them!
You don't seem to understand how the ear works in this regard. Its not like an amp is on the bench where the less volume the less distortion.
try this:
https://phineasgage.wordpress.com/2007/10/13/audiophiles-and-the-limitations-of-human-hearing/
try it! you know you want to!
So now do you get that what you are talking about and what I've been talking about are not the same thing at all?
Once you do understand this, it will be like a light going on- you will instantly understand why the SS/tubes debate has been going on for so many decades.
if you can't hear it, it doesn't matter, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, ascending, descending, it is all MOOT if below the threshold of audibility. Of course, there are no tube amps I am aware of capable of that type of performance so it is entirely possible that your argument about the negative consequences of 7th harmonic is entire real for tube amps and why there are those who actually like the audible 2nd harmonic distortion that some tube amps produce.
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 11/16/15
I really have no idea why you made this comment:
if you can't hear it, it doesn't matter, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, ascending, descending, it is all MOOT if below the threshold of audibility. Of course, there are no tube amps I am aware of capable of that type of performance so it is entirely possible that your argument about the negative consequences of 7th harmonic is entire real for tube amps and why there are those who actually like the audible 2nd harmonic distortion that some tube amps produce.
Could you explain the text in bold, as it seems to be at the heart of your comment.
I certainly agree that if you can't hear it then it does not matter. What you want to keep in mind here is that the ear converts all distortion into some type of tonality. The 2nd being 'warmth' for example, the 7th being 'metallic' and 'harsh'. The difference between the two examples is that the 2nd is relatively innocuous in "large" amounts while the 7th is annoying even though it might be buried in the noise of the test equipment and/or the amp itself.
It's all over ........ :)
Go Rossi ......
I mean with the amplifiers ....... :)
Go Rossi ......
(nt)
nt
try it! you know you want to!
nt
try it! you know you want to!
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nt
try it! you know you want to!
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Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
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So What , you NCore CLass-D guys get together and compare graphs ...
:) ROFL
.
Go Rossi ......
nt
try it! you know you want to!
...and the mouse in your pocket.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
and some amps don't produce harmonic distortion that is audible. Thus, 7th, 2nd, whatever, if you can't hear it, it doesn't matter! Your comments on the conversion of harmonics to tonality only applies to those that are audible! Since there are no tube amps I am aware of capable of amplifying the input signal without producing any audible harmonic distortion, your comments are certainly relevant in regards to tube amps. There are, however, ss and class d amps that are indeed capable of amplifying the input signal without producing audible harmonic distortion and thus your comments about tonality are pointless in regards to amps which do not produce audible harmonic distortion.
try it! you know you want to!
Its like herding cats.
I don't know of a transistor amp wherein the higher ordered harmonics are inaudible even when they measure in trace amounts. Such a thing does not exist. The harmonic structure of all amplifiers is audible.
Since your education about the human ear is obviously limited, this conversation will simply go in circles. Instead of trying to make me wrong, you might instead take some time to study how the ear/brain system works. Obviously you are a proponent of class D; like all other amps class D has particular artifacts related to distortion that can be heard by the ear. If you at least knew that the ear can do such a thing it would open the up the possibility to do something about it. You can't do that if you are operating with a blind spot!
"...you don't want ANY 7th order harmonic distortion."(emphasis mine)
He doesn't mention anything about thresholds of audibility.
That's your strawman.
that anything below the threshold of audibility is moot. There is no straw man, sleepy...
try it! you know you want to!
...you have no understanding of what Ralph is telling you and Curl is saying.
Hint: they aren't talking about steady state sine wave measurements.
nt
try it! you know you want to!
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then let me know how you or anyone else can hear its harmonic distortion when it's -100dB down and below the threshold of audibility. As you have said, "doesn't matter if it isn't audible...."
If you think it is audible with a complex signal, show some data to support you position.
try it! you know you want to!
Edits: 11/16/15
Think about the distortion riding on top of the energy of the waveform (a little calculus is helpful) and you will see what the problem is.
I couldn't disagree more strongly with one sentiment expressed in the linked article:
"In other words, it's not really worth trusting an audio reviewer who is older than you are, because there is a range of higher frequencies that you can hear while they cannot. "
While I could detect active burglar alarms at age 18, I couldn't begin to hear the kinds of differences among audio gear that older, trained ears I knew at the time could. There's more to music than the last octave.
In fact, I find getting the midrange right far more important than either extreme.
Music does not consist of isolated sine waves. Therefore, a test of how an amplifier responds to isolated sine waves can not completely characterize the response of the amplifier to music.
"Harmonic distortion" is not a fundamental characteristic of a system. It is one method of measuring the non-linearity of a system.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
nt
try it! you know you want to!
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