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In Reply to: RE: It won't sell posted by josh358 on October 26, 2015 at 06:24:08
"In recent years, I've learned more about confirmation bias"
When it comes to the subjective camp I wonder how much brand/price bias figures into the evaluation process?
It seems to me that when subjectivists insist on sighted testing what they are really after is brand/price identification/knowledge. Once they are given that information then they are on firm footing. Oftentimes, if an audiophile thinks he is evaluating a $500 amp the exercise becomes a yawner. But if he believes he is auditioning a $25,000 amp....
In his book "Why You Like the Wines You Like," wine writer, Tim Hanni, recalls the night a friend brought a five thousand dollar magnum to his house for a dinner party. "It was a lovely wine," says Hanni. The next day Kate, his wife, confronted him and demanded, "Why didn't you tell me how expensive that wine is!"
Hanni says like any insensitive and stupid husband he asked, "What would that have mattered? It's not as though someone is going to smell the wine and say, Wow!, this is worth thousands of dollars!"
His wife's response was: "If I had known it was that special I would have paid more attention and enjoyed it more."
Hanni says that, "She is, of course, right."
Hanni points to a study (link below). According to Stanford researchers, when a person is told they are comparing a $5 wine with a $45 wine, when they are, in fact, sampling the same wine, the part of the brain that experiences pleasure will become more active when the drinker believes he is tasting the $45 wine.
I suspect further research will demonstrate the same holds true for evaluations of high-end audio and other luxury goods.
Follow Ups:
Tim Hanni here. And i am heavily into audio! Yes, many of the same biases are evident in audio evaluation as well as wine.
"When it comes to the subjective camp I wonder how much brand/price bias figures into the evaluation process?"
I wonder too. It certainly figures in, the Harman research shows that. But I have no idea to what degree its affecting a given review, or my own impressions.
"It seems to me that when subjectivists insist on sighted testing what they are really after is brand/price identification/knowledge. Once they are given that information then they are on firm footing. Oftentimes, if an audiophile thinks he is evaluating a $500 amp the exercise becomes a yawner. But if he believes he is auditioning a $25,000 amp...."
But who insists on that? I think that the issue with blind testing usually has more to do with practical logistics. Side-by-side double blind AB tests are hard to arrange.
"Hanni points to a study (link below). According to Stanford researchers, when a person is told they are comparing a $5 wine with a $45 wine, when they are, in fact, sampling the same wine, the part of the brain that experiences pleasure will become more active when the drinker believes he is tasting the $45 wine.
"I suspect further research will demonstrate the same holds true for evaluations of high-end audio and other luxury goods."
I wouldn't be at all surprised. And, really, is there anything wrong with that, if your goal is to feel good? The issue that I have is that it makes it harder to put together a really good *sounding* system.
Personally, I try to find those few magical components that punch way above their price class.
"And, really, is there anything wrong with that, if your goal is to feel good?"
No. Nor am I suggesting there is. I understand why some audiophiles take pride and comfort in owning certain brands.
"Personally, I try to find those few magical components that punch way above their price class."
Yes, that is the difficult part, isn't it?
Yes, it can be very time consuming. It helps that there's so much great used stuff available now. Also to focus on major rather than minor issues, e.g., improving room acoustics rather than buying expensive interconnects. And to give a listen to the components that reviewers consider a great value while trying to ignore the allure of hideously expensive items that reach the point of diminishing returns.
And maybe to be a bit canny. Forex, I just got a couple of Crown 2500's to try on my woofers, they were on sale for $300 each because the new model is coming out. I'd never expect to run a cheap Class D amp full range, the highs aren't very good. But they're typically great at bass frequencies. And if these don't pan out (as usual, I've heard conflicting reports) I can just send the back to Amazon.
There was a time when I did buy the fancy stuff, and some of it was beautiful. But eventually I found that I could outdo most systems for very little, and make a system that lights up the eyes of audiophiles and non-audiophiles alike -- and more importantly, that sounds so remarkable I could be happy with it forever. And the interconnects will be nothing more than 14 gauge lamp cord, because I'm focusing on the major stuff rather than costly improvements with consequences so subtle you aren't even sure whether they're real or not.
When it comes to the subjective camp I wonder how much brand/price bias figures into the evaluation process?
They are of the same price and both are of unknown brands to the listener? That happened to me on one of my visits to Sea Cliff back in '01. The two contenders were a pair of Edge Signature Monoblocks:
vs VTL Wotans:
Visually, it was like comparing Jenny McCarthy to Rosie O'Donnell. Chassis of milled and engraved aluminum using countersunk machine bolts vs rolled sheet metal and plain screws.
Guess which I preferred in terms of making the walls disappear and sounding more like live music? Soon after that, I purchased new amps and remain giddily happy using them to this day. If you check my system, you'll find the answer to the question. :)
Visually, it was like comparing Jenny McCarthy to Rosie O'Donnell, Guess which I preferred in terms of making the walls disappear and sounding more like live music? Soon after that, I purchased new amps and remain giddily happy using them to this day. If you check my system, you'll find the answer to the question. :) - EStat
Sooooo, Since it was not a blind test, my guess..? you like Ugly amps and or Big women .. :)
Edits: 10/29/15 10/29/15
Sooooo, Since it was not a blind test, my guess..? you like Ugly amps and or Big women .. :)
That's what DBT proponents would say. :)
"Visually, it was like comparing Jenny McCarthy to Rosie O'Donnell. Chassis of milled and engraved aluminum using countersunk machine bolts vs rolled sheet metal and plain screws."
It's to your credit that you weren't swayed by a pretty face. But my point has to do with brand/price, not cosmetics.
"They are of the same price and both are of unknown brands to the listener?"
Again, my example has to do with situations in which the listener does know the brands and prices under review (or, as in the Stanford study, believes he does).
But my point has to do with brand/price, not cosmetics.
I had never heard of either brand before, so I had no prior bias about either - one way or another.
Their price was the same.
My choice was based upon my emotional reaction to how each reproduced music. One was exceptionally good. The other had me laughing out loud listening to my favorite music. :)
"My choice was based upon my emotional reaction to how each reproduced music."
Good for you. I can think of no better criteria for purchasing an audio component.
...don't you list your system?
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