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In Reply to: RE: Measurements vs. Reviewers posted by hahax@verizon.net on August 19, 2015 at 04:59:00
I find the arguments that are so strongly against measurements a little odd.
Likewise, I also find those who think there are companies/designers out there that measure, but don't listen, just as odd.
I've been to many audio companies around the world, and the best ones measure and listen -- over and over again. In fact we just produced a SoundStage! InSight episode on another, Monitor Audio. See link below.
Doug Schneider
SoundStage!
Follow Ups:
Hi, I knew the anti measurement group would chime in on this one. My favorite amps and ones I use are little vacuum tube Heathkits that have far from state of the art distortion measurements. I don't really know when my ears might detect distortions but if you read John Atkinsons findings on the Vinnie Rossi integrated amp the measurements don't matter crowd might cringe. The amp is very far off the stated stats, going in the wrong direction. I'm far from a recording engineer so sometimes the stats are the only thing that I can use as a barometer to shop other than just ones review. That's why my stupid idea of internal debate within the same publication. It hasn't been done yet so why not a try...might make some good reading as well as a good Hifi shoppers tool and that's what the magizines all about. Isn't it?.......sincerely Mark Korda
It depends on the stats you're using. I was given a good explanation why an amp with variable feedback sounded best with no feedback(and thus higher harmonic distortion) and the reason was measureable. You need to choose the right measurements if the device actually sounds good(difficult to prove subjectively) and seems to measure poorly.
I find the arguments against listening odd also. And I can sort of blame a good friend, Gordon Holt, for it. Though I believe it was a misunderstanding of his beliefs. He wasn't against measuring, just against measuring that didn't correlate to sound. We've learned a lot since Stereophile came out in the early 60s and we often can measure to describe performance.
It's always amazed me how much audiophiles are often against measurements. I t appears that as a group they are of very high IQ and are also very well educated. But when it comes to audio they forget all this and revert to acts of faith.
Trusting your hearing is not an act of faith. If you don't trust your hearing how could you ever buy anything? By measurements. Good luck
Alan
Preferably by both hearing and measurements so each side can moderate the other. Too bad we don't get enough measurements. We do get a lot of words which are often even harder to judge than measurements.
I'll just say that with all the companies I've been to, no matter how many measurements get done, I've never found one where listening doesn't happen. It's all part of the process -- and usually an iterative thing.
Doug Schneider
SoundStage!
Of course listening is still needed to see if the measurements actually correlate. I just know there are measurements that do correlate. And I know Floyd Toole believes that also.
Hi,
And Dr. Toole is definitely correct. At Harman, they do measurements that allow them full sound power, as well as directivity at pretty much ever angle. As I said in my article, companies such like that one do volumes of measurements that publications don't.
Doug Schneider
SoundStage!
Doug,
That's the way it's supposed to be. The manufacturers are the ones who do the measurements. Not us. I expect no less from Harman. That's their job. Not our job.
Actually that is part of the reviewer's job, to verify a manufacturer's technical claims. Your excuse is can only mean to me that you have neither the equipment nor the skill in all likelihood to make those measurements. Instead you just give your opinion. So you review an amplifier that claims 500 watts per channel, you review it and tell us how great it sounds, and then when I buy it I find out it only puts out 200 watts per channel. Is that your idea of a review? Well it's not mine.
John Atkinson provides speaker measurements without ever telling us how much distortion a woofer puts out. All that supposed deep bass might just be doubling but he and we'd never know it until we hear it for ourselves. I've yet to see one of your reviews that was critical of any equipment. Everything you publish seems to me like an extension of the manufacturer's advertising. Well they're good for a laugh if nothing else.
Without measurements to back it up a review is a practically useless anecdote.
As you can tell from this long discussion, I'm on the side of measurements. Unfortunately most reviewers don't have access to these tools. But I do believe a review can still be useful especially from a reviewer who has written often. You can get a sense of his biases over a long period and use this to know what he's hearing. And I do believe there have been a few really good subjective reviewers such as Gordon Holt and recently Roy Gregory who you can glean tons of info from.
Something like Dayton Omnimic is easy to use and can be purchased on Amazon for $300. I think every audiophile should be equipped to make in-room acoustic measurements and should use them to help system/room setup and optimization. But I know that few do.
If I were reviewing speakers, I would want to make measurements to help with placement and to get the most out of them.
It's not enough. As Doug Schneider has written in this discussion it needs lots of measurements and someone who knows how to interpret them. Otherwise designing or criticizing speakers would be a snap.
You said most reviewers don't have access to measurement tools, which is nonsense. For acoustic measurements, any reviewer has access to suitable tools.
You don't need an anechoic chamber. A chamber is surely nice, but reviewers like John Atkinson and Martin Colloms are able to make useful measurements without one. And more importantly, most speaker designers manage to do OK without one as well.
I'm not even asking for reviewers to possess the engineering background necessary to interpret a full suite of measurements. If all reviewers would just use basic in-room FR measurements to optimize speaker positioning, and then include an in-room measurement with comparison to their reference speakers, we would be a lot better off.
In his speaker reviews, John Atkinson often includes a spatially averaged in-room response compared to another reference. This one plot is more useful than all his other loudspeaker measurements combined, because it correlates best with his subjective impressions. Also, by comparing and contrasting the measurements of various speakers in the same room, you can separate the speakers' signature from the room's signature. I don't know why every reviewer doesn't do this.
I'd actually like measurements we usually don't see and could be hard to do. In one case I'd like to see the transfer function of each driver and its crossover, that is the frequency response of an isolated driver/crossover combo.
Why so hard on opinion only reviewers, a tier one reviewer opinion trumps all , no need to listen just buy ..
:)
I do find some purely subjective reviews to be useful as long as they include comparisons with other equipment of similar design & price or with references I'm familiar with. When that's lacking as well, it's hard to call it a review.
I agree with you.
Doug Schneider
SoundStage!
Hi Peter,
I guess it depends what you figure your job is.
As a review, measurements are valid. As I explained in my article, they might not tell you everything about the way a product sounds, but they do tell you certain aspects about the product, and they can help you to tell a product has been competently designed or not. I don't take magazines too seriously that don't do them.
Doug Schneider
SoundStage!
Have to agree ....
In an interview Peter Walker once was asked what the QUAD listening room looks like.
He answered that they do not have one and everything is designed by measurements alone although his engineers were allowed to take stuff home if they really wanted to listen to it.
Things may have changed since he passed away and the company was sold to China.
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