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In Reply to: RE: Jon "Magico Valin can't forgive Stereophile for the Q5 review posted by Sprezza Tura on June 13, 2015 at 07:23:26
Sorry, I know it's not fashionable to agree with TAS on this forum, and Valin in particular, but I think he has it exactly right in this blog post.
His impressions of Wilson, Raidho, and Magico are pretty much bang-on with my (more limited) experiences with the brands. Wilson has a trademark mid-bass bump. Raidho has an elevated mid-upper bass, an upper mid/lower treble dip, and a rising top end. Magico is about as flat as they come, for better or worse.
I also completely agree with him when he says that for most bass lovers, the low bass doesn't matter. I think he's implicitly calling out Michael Fremer, but it applies to a lot of audiophiles. In his review of the Q5, Fremer said that some recordings are intended to punch you in the stomach. It's debatable whether that was what the producers of classic rock and pop recordings intended, but regardless of intent, it certainly isn't there on most older recordings and therefore you need a mid-bass bump in the playback system to feel it. There's not a lot of low bass on those recordings either.
Fremer also complained that low cello notes weren't making his stomach churn. I've never felt my stomach churn when listening to cello live; at most a faint flutter when sitting close. So I'm not sure what he wants is realistic. But realistic or not, you're certainly not going to find that on a MLP recording of Starker played on a flat system, so if you want that sort of fireworks you need a system that can emphasize those notes.
Personally, I think that most geezer rock benefits from a bit of thump-thump and older classical and jazz recordings benefit from a bit of extra fullness in the upper bass. Whereas more modern music and the best acoustic recordings shine in a flatter system. It is recording dependent, so I don't think there is really any right answer. But I think in this case, Valin has called it like it is.
Follow Ups:
Just read the article and I have to agree, indeed, I think it's one of the most astute summaries of loudspeaker characteristics I've ever read, one that correlates spectacularly with my own observations, criticisms, and experience. (In general - I haven't heard the Magicos.)
And ultimately he circles back to a dilemma that I think we all have, or those of us who listen to acoustical music have anyway -- the crap quality of most commercial recordings. Does one balance a speaker for a good recording or for what's out there?
I'm currently trying a pair of Etymotic earbuds. These things are known for being tonally neutral (after standard compensation for the ear canal) and they sound great on audiophile recordings, with a sometimes palpable tonal realism, but on commercial recordings, they sound bright and weak in the midbass. So what do I do?
I think most of us would go for a balance that suits commercial recordings, since that, alas, is where most of the music is. But even there, you're going to find a lot variation.
The sad truth is that the removal of tone controls was overly optimistic. No one is going to be able to make a speaker that suits all recordings because there are so many bad recordings out there, and even there weren't, two channel acoustical recordings require a downsloped target curve and compensation for the midrange problems caused by interaural crosstalk.
Are you trying the ER-4S?
I have the ER-4S adapter, but it takes things in the wrong direction, emphasizing the highs and deemphasizing the lows. I've had good results though with the TB Isone VST plug-in. It alters the response curve to one that's similar to what you'd get from speakers.
In Android, I've been experimenting with USB Audio Player Pro, which not only allows you to play high res material through a USB DAC (I'm using my Dragonfly) but has a simple graphic equalizer built in. I've had very good results -- using ES File Explorer, I can access all the music files on my computer via WiFI or the Internet, with 96 kHz/24 bit playback, ESS DAC, and isochronous USB -- combined with the Ety's, real fidelity from a phone!
(In fact, the Dragonfly/UAPP combo is so good sonically that I'm temporarily using it to drive my main system while I assemble my new HTPC.)
Every single speaker, every single component of any kind, elicit wild paroxisms of pleasure in reviewers. EVERYTHING - especially speakers, are incredibly wonderful. Don't take my word for it. Just read the reviews. Any reviews.
And records? Vinyl records? Any vinyl records? Dew drop straight from heaven.
N. Thelman, SSI
LOL, yeah, there's some truth in that. But you learn to discount certain reviewers who gush about everything; they're like tabloid headlines. And also to distinguish between genuine enthusiasm and politeness, and to know which reviewers have tastes and priorities similar to your own.
A manufacturer told me once that when he's made improvements in his product, the reviewers have accurately described most of the sonic changes. So I think you have some pretty experienced ears out there.
I'd say that when I've bought equipment on the basis of reviews, it's worked out about half the time, in the sense that the equipment had that magic that made me want to keep it. Which I think is a lot better than chance and really no worse than what I can do myself at an audio dealer, where I'm dealing with different acoustics, ancillary gear, placement, and program material.
As to digital, well, there's a lot of dreadful 44.1 stuff out there. The sampling rate was compromised by greedy businessmen. Early converters and standards conversion (necessitated by the dumb sampling rate) were poor. Masters made for LP were used to rush out CD's and were a bad match for the medium. So for many years, LP's really did sound better, for all of their flaws.
Now converters have improved dramatically. Higher definition formats avoid the compromises of brick wall filters (though I'm not sure I understand the current enthusiasm for DSD, given that most DSD has been converted to PCM along the way, meaning you might as well just be playing high sampling rate PCM through a delta-sigma DAC). Even 44.1 can sound very good through a modern DAC that uses isochronous USB rather than a jitter-prone PLL clock or one of those dreadful ASRC's, and that uses reconstruction filters that make careful trade-offs to avoid the worst sonic effects of brick-wall FIR filters, e.g., by reducing the slope to minimize ringing, lowering the cutoff frequency a bit, and using minimum rather than linear phase filters.
Even so, most of us have a lot of poorly-mastered 44.1 in our libraries, and substandard converters outnumber the few good ones, which is particularly frustrating if you're using a portable device or trying for something more than two-channel with a passive crossover.
So I think most would now say that with the right sources and equipment, digital can now match analog, but that LP is still a much safer choice, in that even mediocre records usually sound good, while bad digital is pretty painful to listen to and there's still a lot of it out there.
I find bad analog pressings to be the worst of the worst and the best pressings to be the best of the best ...
LOL, wouldn't be surprised if it's true. That being said, i just tried putting my Dragonfly DAC on my phone with an OTG cable driving the Etymotics, using Es file explorer to stream audio from my computer via wifi to USB Audio Pro. Now I can play anything in my music collection at up to 96/24 natively on my phone through a decent DAC! You can't do that with LP's. :-)
Would you be surprised if I think you make some refreshingly valid points, and that your post is good food for thought?
I also think Valin is an astute listener. His bombast is what I think makes him a target.
One could say that saying you do not agree with a competing review on a public blog is not the best way to go, since, it only reinforces the notion that some magazines, TAS in particular, are manufacturer centric.
Stereophile should probably be flattered because when you call them out - you are acknowledging the king of the hill.
In BC - for many years the Honda Civic was the runaway best selling compact or small car being sold (it may still be). And it seemed like every time a competing car advert came on the screen it was to say that "our new "whatever" has better 0-60, or more space - or more luggage room, better gas mileage etc.
But every time I saw one I laughed because basically all those makers were conceding the that everything they put out was referencing (and thus advertising) for the other brand (Honda). Valin basically gets people to click on the Stereophile Magico review (and Wilson) or buy the copy of the issue to see what Valin is referencing. And even if people agree with Valin in the end - he still sent eyes to Stereophile more hits and made them more money. Stereophile should send him a Christmas card or something.
Although your point is valid in general, it really does not apply here.
I read it his little rant to mean he was personally offended that Stereophile did not put a stamp of approval on his crowning of the Magico Q series and that they gave other brands with, in his mind, design flaws, a pass.
Magico adds have probably kept TAS solvent so he is of course going to defend his benefactors to the death.
You may be right. But the guy has his favorites - so do we all. I think you have to judge the statements in themselves without the conspiracy theory hat. Magico and Wilson sound quite different to me - I personally prefer the sound of Magico's floorstanders to what I have heard from Wilson Audio. Here in HK you can listen to them every day and I have simply heard Magico manage to sound very good even with unusual pairings.
At the last two American Audio Shows I covered Magico was IMO easily the better sounding system to me. So from a subjective music listening stance I get where Valin is coming from. Stereophile also takes in a lot of advertising which is why they are kept solvent - no advertising - no Stereophile.
What I have grudgingly learned over the years is that no matter how much I like something not everyone is going to agree with me. And Valin writing a rant line - I can at least sympathize with because we get a little ego driven like "why the hell can't those cloth eared twits hear what I am hearing" - so it goes.
Nobody said Magicos were not great.
But a reviewer is not supposed to make it personal. Magico already has a national sales manager. A reviewer is not supposed to be a manufacturers advocate. They are supposed to serve the consumer.
Reviewers are partly responsible for the absurd pricing we have been seeing lately and the reason they have been the objects of scorn is many continue to endorse, defend, and even justify this pricing.
I saw this post on AudioCirlce, and I think it is very representative of the sentiment out there.
"Newport was my first show and my first time hearing a lot of the high end systems that are in magazines and have dealers. It seems I wasn't the only one that thought a good majority of the rooms at Newport were very poor sounding either resulting from improper room setup, bad sources, or just plain overrated products. A lot of people will say that as the show goes from Friday to Sunday each room will make adjustments and will sound better by Sunday afternoon.
The Odyssey room at Newport sounded absolutely fantastic from the get go. I laughed at the cost of some of the other rooms that were just ok sounding while I go in the Odyssey room and get soul satisfying sound at a fraction of the price."
"But a reviewer is not supposed to make it personal. Magico already has a national sales manager. A reviewer is not supposed to be a manufacturers advocate. They are supposed to serve the consumer."Yep.
But I do see a editorial partiality in car enthusiast magazines when you follow certain contributors. The most obvious partiality is for a BMW in car magazines when they are running a review with some.
It's easy to think that the reviewers are somehow "in the pocket" of a manufacturer, but I do wonder if that's really the case. I do think there are a lot of personal ties in this rather incestuous industry that appears to be somewhat unavoidable given how pervasive it is. I know Consumer reports is a decent model, but I am sure we'd find something not to like about them if they started reviewing high end gear.
(And back to the original point, it is interesting when someone feels the need to call out a competitor. It is, like a lot were saying, the next best thing to an endorsement!)
============================
As audiophiles, we take what's obsolete, make it beautiful, and keep it forever.
Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
Edits: 07/29/15
That may be the case with car mags. I admit to not reading them regularly for a long time now.
I think Jon "Magico" Valin's rant and defense of his benefactors was pretty obvious to all, as well as his resentment to his "competitor".
A few points:
1) The Audio Note Ongaku was $89,000 back in 1989. So high prices are nothing new.
2) representative sentiment over high prices and judging things entirely on one audio show is irrelevant to me. Opinions are a dime a dozen - every single audio product that is out there gets a positive review by someone - the ears that matter to me are MY EARS and I trust people who hear it the way I hear it. The fact that someone likes a cheap product at an audio show over $100,000 system is great and all - but it's my hearing of it that counts to me and the people who hear it like me. And at the US shows I've been to along with systems I hear all the time in HK - the best systems have not been the cheap ones - albeit less expensive rooms can take down some (some) expensive systems.
3) Bias goes both ways - people may believe expensive is better but people also "want to believe" that cheap is just as good because all they can afford is cheap and it makes them happier to think they outsmart rich people. The best stuff that I have heard I will NEVER be able to afford to buy but I am not going to pretend that what I can afford is"just as good" because under a show condition a $5k system beat some $50k systems.
4) Shows are intended mainly for dealers - to get dealers to want to pick up a company's line of product (or for importers and distributors).
I have spoken to many of these show set-up people and it's rather shocking how hard it is to get everything right in just a couple of hours often without things being shopped to the hotel in time or given the wrong rooms or not told that - by the way there is a big air vent right above the speaker end of the room which is going to serve as a giant boom box - treatments just can't fix that.
And aside from any of that I have read exact polar opposites on the exact same room from the internet peanut gallery over the years. I have heard the same set-ups where at one show it would have been in the running for absolute worst sound at show and at another show I chose as near the very best. Holy cow a striking difference.
Many posters do not listen to their own recordings or stay for any period of time through their own admissions. One room plays the fancy Iso-Mike suped up "special" recordings of supreme fidelity while the next room plays 1929 Opera on a scratchy vinyl. Guy pops his head in for 4 minutes and makes his "absolute conclusion for the rest of his life" that room B sucks and is grossly overpriced while room A is a "fraction of the price" and is vastly better.
I get it - I try to be a cheap bastard whenever possible and want to find the giant killer as much as the next guy. And sometimes the cheaper will slay some (but not all) the giants.
5) reviewers can say whatever the heck they want. They are people too. When John Marks continuously recommends Vivid Audio, ATC, Usher and Wilson Benesch it's because he happens to really like those speakers.
6) Manufacturers send products for review with the HOPES that the reviewer will advocate for their product by giving it a good review. If Manufacturers didn't have that hope they would not send products for review - nothing would get reviewed and there would be nothing for anyone to read.
RGA ,
I do concur , for the most part the expensive stuff has a level of refinement not associated With lesser stuff . Aside , I do take umbrage to the term "internet peanut gallery" , cowardly chaff is the accepted Tier 1 term, not sure if lower tier reviewers are allowed such privileges.....
Regards
Reviewers are part of the internet peanut gallery too though :)
I'm a reviewer - on the internet, and I'm a nut. So there.
I do not think that they are necessarily overpriced, given the quality of components, design, manufacture quality, - etc...
Like the upper tier Von Schweikerts, they amaze me with their lack of dynamics, their cold, scientific, & lack of flow, and relaxed character.
No matter how hard one beats on them with beautiful, relaxed, high current amps, - they still sound etched, too precisely clinical, and simply wrong.
I've heard them with VAC, BAT, VTL, D'agostino, Halcro, amps. If you're speaker doesn't sound "right" with VAC, - your speaker is simply WRONG in my book....
This stuff is largely just personal opinion, and as said above, - contingent often on room + music style choices.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Yes exactly as I've heard Magicos on at least 6 occasions
Oh Sord' you left out Spectral/ Boulder/Constellation electronics--which I've heard them with
Even they could'nt save 'em
There are far better Transducers out there for less dosh
But shrewd marketing and Placement I suppose pays the Piper
Des
I do believe that both Magico and WA are good products , well engineered and sonically good enough for those spending that kind of dosh to be purchasing year in and year out .Dave's K comments is very interesting thou , in a well treated room , low noise floor and in a one on one listening situation he felt the bass tuneful but light , look no further than , this is obviously the fly in the ointment , because if so , the speaker will be hopelessly thin sounding in the typical resistive noisy room , especially with the high noise floor associated with shows, the increased level needed to compensate will obviously exaggerate this sonic characteristic , I do believe this is why many find the speaker thin and bright sounding at shows ...
Regards
Regards ....
Edits: 06/17/15
Techno music is different that acoustic classical or chamber music. Massive pipe organ or choral....
Nothing wrong with picking your speaker that enhances your listening pleasure. A speaker that, (for lack of a better way of saying), boosts bass to enhance the comparatively "bass shy" aspects of classical, COULD be too thick & lumbering for rock or techno.
There's a lot of assumptions that fly around sometimes.
IMO, Kharma, Verity Audio, Avalon's $20K speakers shatter anything that says Magico on it: across the entire sonic spectrum.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
My sentiments also-- luv the Veritys and Avalons-- Sound that draws you in --something that
Magico doesn't
Not so sure on the Kharmas--my Jurys out on those
Des
I'm curious where you heard the Magico speakers and which ones? I think you mentioned a few different shows? I'm looking for a pair to audition but no dealers in Wisconsin. Maybe Illinois if I feel like driving.
Try vapor ....
I'm curious as to why you are curious :).
Honestly speaking, you don't seem like the Magico type.
"I'm curious as to why you are curious :)."
I was thinking I really need to get out more. Not much going on here in cow country. I appreciate Sordidman taking the time to share his experiences. I certainly wasn't questioning any of them. My apologies if it came across that way.
"Honestly speaking, you don't seem like the Magico type. "
The Magico type??? What type do think I am? White van speakers? lol
No, - i didn't think that you were questioning my impressions/experiences at all... not a bad thing in any case...
It's good to seek out new experiences, and impressions vary. I've very few friends who I could go into every room at a show and have us walk out with the same impressions.
Sometimes I think that it's hard for ANYONE to formulate opinions, (let alone an opinionated fool like me), based on the "unchallenging," "safe," music that is demoed.
I always have appreciated Eveanna Manley for playing all kinds of different music that would take a system through varying sounds that really test it's flexibility.
That's writing as someone who always bring their own music to CES, and has sent amps into protection with it before..
I would say that I am an "amp" person, (primarily as a musician), I would rather spend my money on a mediocre speaker and a great amp than vice versa. Amplification isn't given enough attention in high end audio. There are 10 billion great speakers out there, and about 10 great amps: and all 10 are bloody expensive.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"There are 10 billion great speakers out there, and about 10 great amps: and all 10 are bloody expensive"
Mind sharing those 10 great amps? The best amps (IMO) are the ones that are carefully matched to a given system. You can only listen to a system, not individual components. And then there are amps that are just plain bloody awful and would ruin any system they are paired with. They have such a heavy sonic signatures it's like trying to disguise the taste of liver.
You're right of course, - I wazza playin around.....
What's important is symbiosis.... Ultimately, (i believe), neutrality builds upon itself, yielding a gestalt that couldn't be achieved with just one or two pieces.
I emphasize high current, but I don't prefer horns or electrostats...
My favs are...
LAMM 2.1 monos....
VAC Signatures
Blue Circle BC26, (maybe the best amp I've heard).
Tenor 300w monos
Manley Stingray, or the NeoClassic 500s
Joule Electra VZN-160 or 220
Audio Analogue Maestro
All these super fast amps as I've heard them are incredibly beguiling and grab all my fav speakers by the throat, and mercilessly force them into precisely controlled obedience....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Have heard the VAC, Lamms, Manleys, and Tenors.
All good amps for sure.
Where did you hear the blue circle ...... ?
once in my house, Twice at two different friends places.....
I was a BC dealer, and I've heard many of their products.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Because the speaker makes the bigger difference, especially seeing there are really a lot more than 10 good amplifiers, not all really expensive, but many many bad speakers, alot really and expensive.
Edits: 06/18/15
LOl..not at all. Based on your reviews, reference gear, and general easy going writing style I pictured you as not only a B&W type, but maybe also leaning towards other British brands like Proac, Harbeth, as well as Vienna Acoustics, Aerial, etc.
Magicos seem to me to be perfect for tight assed analytical types who can recite the Bill Of Materials for every component they own right down the type of plugs on their power cords. This may have no basis in any larger reality but has been my experience with every Magico owner I have met. Or maybe I just I'm off the deep end.
"Magicos seem to me to be perfect for tight assed analytical types..."
You're half right. I'm not the analytical type :-)
I didn't list everything in my reference system, like the Novacron amps. Not a good match for B&W. I love those 6C33-B toobs. And I reviewed a pair of Coincident speakers with ribbon tweeters that I really liked. Loved the airy highs. I should be thinking more about those. But still would like to hear the Magico.
Ah, gotcha!
Magicos are definately worth hearing.
I never once heard the Q5 sound good but I really believe it was due to the partnering amps..Spectral, Soulution, etc.
The S5 and S3, on the other hand, sounded very good to me, with a Studer deck as the source!
CES, CAAS, Several SF/Bay Area demos....
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
So then is Dayton Ohio too far? That's where I heard them (Magico spkrs). Dave
Everyone thinks I'm strange except my friends deep inside the earth
There's a dealer in the Chicago area, not that I wouldn't mind a trip to Dayton. They have a pair of S3s, but the speakers are currently out on loan and not expected back for a few weeks. So y'all will have to wait until July for my full review lol
I heard these at Goodwin's High End in Boston on a couple of separate occasions with amplification from Simaudio, Hegel, Ayre, and Linn. Dynamics were just average for a medium sensitivity dynamic speaker. And the bass was a bit light; well extended, tight, and tuneful, but light. Everything else was stellar. Well recorded acoustic instruments and voices sounded about as real as I've heard. And they did not sound bright or etched at all.
I also heard the Q1 at a show and that one did sound more or less as you described. I don't know whether it was a case of different room & different conditions, or whether there is a difference in house sound between the Q and S. Probably a bit of both. The rooms at Goodwin's are acoustically treated.
But my impression is that the S1 is a speaker I would consider owning, the Q1 not. I heard the original Mini many years ago, and that was somewhere in between.
Interesting. While I've not heard the Magico speakers yet, I'm familiar with the type of sound you describe. Frustrating. Gave me flashbacks of my Edge NL-10. The perfect sounding amp that left me cold. Lost a lot of money on that one.
Yeah...
Interesting... One Magico Demo I heard with their $15,000 stand mount speakers and their $5000 wood stands: with Halcro amps.
It sounded incredibly sterile, like the hospital. I believe at that demo, they were running Wadia's top of the line, 6 box transport/left-right DAC combo. With cables, the system was way north of $200K. Ironic that there was a Manley Stingray sitting on a shelf right beside it.
I started a chant, "plug in the Stingray, plug in the Sting Ray"
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Sterile as a hospital? Ouch. I'm looking for new speakers but Magico is probably too rich for my blood anyway. The B&W 800D is about as far as I can stretch my wallet.
I might be a bit extreme here.... (sorry)
You know more about what you like than me... So I should shut up.
(whenever anyone writes something like that, you know what's coming)
more.....
Won't give you too much of a Merlin plug but two that you should check out.... Merlin VSM & the lovely Avalon Transcendence.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
well, you open up an interesting discussion.
Magico's may not be overpriced based on parts and build, but don't you buy speakers based on sonics?
Alon Wolf called his competitors "furniture makers". Are his buyer paying for expensive columns filled with exotic parts and dazzling engineering or for the ability to enjoy music?
Also, getting back to my original point, between Valin and Frtiz, why does Magico even need a sales staff?
Yep...
Of course you're right, the most important "value" element is performance. I brought that (likely secondary point) as cost to build is too often overlooked.
Yeah, - with all of the hype surrounding this speaker, and reviews that I find questionable, I would agree that they wouldn't need a sales team.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I have nothing against Magico, just to be clear to anyone. I think it is a valid product.
I just think using impressive technical details, Mundorf capacitors, and exotic driver material as a selling point is where the industry has gone wrong.
And this tunnel visioned drive to tame resonance has led them down a path...never heard a musical instrument or human that did not resonate.
I think Wilson has one thing right, and that is they do very much take room interaction into consideration, hence the adjustable tweeter position and their room placement techniques.
FWIW,
I agree completely..........
My opinion on the Wilson's are that they have a very innovative cabinet design, and they have a "house sound" that is "right" for certain folks. I think that they also have an optimized setup design that deals well with room interactions.
IMO though, (and I have/had a "live" room), they work best in "live" rooms that are large. My take is that their cabinets are "over-damped."
A speaker that can sound excellent in a large, "live," open room with wood floors, driven by super high current amps.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Well summed up.
Ultimately, NOT being a speaker designer, my gut tells me that "inert" cabinets and this ill advised pursuit is trying to banish those evil resonances, you make the room a far, far bigger factor than it ever should be.
Many moons ago, we had experimented with , marble, aluminium and concrete enclosures , we kept going back to wood, no matter how hard we tried there was always something too different when not using wood, not better, just different and unnatural to what we were accustomed to ...
I suspect some of that could be happening here ...
I think reviewers are also responsible for Global warming.
According to the US Senate (a scientifically illiterate bunch of morons) there is no such thing so we're safe from blame on this topic.
You are only extending to the senate ..... :)
If I get too critical on the "crtics" forum this will get deleted - so everyone just say nice things - lalalalalalalalala. If we ignore the problems some ahem "imaginary being" in space will fix it all for us. lalalalalalala.
No respectable audio reviewer would let the facts get in the way , good job ..... :)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/05/26/to-the-horror-of-global-warming-alarmists-global-cooling-is-here/
You provide a piece written by a right wing non scientist with political agenda to support oil burning.http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
Even your staunch deniers are cluing in
http://reason.com/archives/2015/04/03/what-evidence-would-persuade-you-that-ma
And for all the religious posters - you should at least listen to your Pope since he is God's right hand man here on earth who gets instructions "apparently" directly from God himself - so going against the Pope means a direct passage to hell. So ignore science fine but not God.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/the-pope/11682872/Pope-Francis-publishes-climate-change-encyclical-live.html
It's sad - it's the equivalent of the folks trying to convince the dimwits that the earth was flat and not the center of the universe - But I suppose at least we're not being burned at the stake as witches for presenting facts.Measured all the way back 650,000 years
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
Edits: 06/18/15
Okay, what about those of us who believe our global is warming, but consider it a natural cycle of that fickle Mom Nature, and not necessarily us mean ol' humans? Frankly, it would be hard to argue that around here in Va. for the last coupla weeks, it hasn't been global burning instead of warming. Truth be told, I'm ready for another ice age. Dave
Everyone thinks I'm strange except my friends deep inside the earth
The issue with many of these kinds of topics is to take the politics out of it - which is often difficult. But surely we must be aware that big corporations can and have put profit over people and one can see a similar link with the tobacco industry that buys off scientists to create doubt and junk science to create debate where there should be none.https://www.google.com.hk/search?q=john+oliver+tobacco&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=Fg-EVZ6THs2j8AXJ2oLwBA
Of course nature is responsible for some climate change - people will cite a volcano eruption as putting out X number times more CO2 than man made pollution but they seem to only read the media article and newscaster's OP-ED but didn't actually read further to understand why the big event isn't as harmful as the long consistent punishment.
In other words no one actually reads or bothers to understand the science or read the 97% who are warning you.You start to dig and research all the volcano emissions and it's nowhere even REMOTELY close to what humans are pumping out. I don't know why this has become a religious thing - I get it for evolution and young earth because those for religious people run counter to what the bible says I suppose (although the Pope and my Christian Pastor friend in Canada absolutely believes in both Evolution and the earth's is billions of years old. But yet there is endless debate where there should be none. It would be like railing against the local school for DARING to teach students that the earth is flat or that inside the human body there are things called bones - those whacky scientists and them there devil lies. Evolution LITERALLY comes across as being this insane (ditto for young earths and Climate Change).
I mean there are arguments made in the TV Series Cosmos that pretty much spells it out to a five year old with an IQ above 60 that a 6000 year old earth is IMPOSSIBLE with ABSOLUTE 100% no doubt about it prove to the same degree that 2+2=4 but nope - let's just bury our head in the sand because some crank scientist puts out junk science but has a "degree"from a 4th tier university where you can get your degree by reading just one book.
It drives my up the wall.
But even if we have doubt on the man made part - ok fair enough I get it the media and the politics and the endless fear tactics and the copious amounts conspiracy theories that we grow up with and it would be pretty tough to say none of us never get caught by any of them.The key thing is if something is 97% to 3% - like your doctor says to you that heart pill A is 97% likely to save your life (3% it may kill you) and pill B is 3% likely to save your life and 97% likely to kill you - you'd be pretty foolish to opt for pill B. It may turn out that you were wrong but you gotta play the odds in the scenario.
And with Climate change this science teacher sums it up pretty well - even if you - it doesn't matter if you believe humans are the sole cause or only part of the cause or even not the cause at all - you choose your lottery ticket on this subject. The guy is pretty good at spelling it out and why it doesn't matter if you think human caused climate change is true or false - that isnt even the important question so long as it is "fathomable" that humans are the cause.
Edits: 06/19/15
Wasting your time David , the kool-aide is very warm, for kicks ask how to fix it , my solution is to limit everyone to 5 watts of class-D and Earbuds only .
What degree do you hold and from what university - before I bother to continue.I just like to see the level of intelligence I have to deal with and which news station you watch on endless repeat.
Edits: 06/19/15
You have shown us enough of who you are, if you proceed to stop with such ignorant dogma , most here might forget what an elitist **** you are ....
Or not ....!
For the record : i would love to be a failure like those college dropouts their most famous colleague is Bill gates ...
Edits: 06/19/15
Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard and WOULD HAVE graduated had he stayed in. Further he recommends others to get a University education.This is unlike the low Racist bigots like Limbaugh
Rush Limbaugh - College Dropout
He enrolled in Southeast Missouri State University but left the school after two semesters and one summer. According to his mother, "he flunked everything".Of course stupid is as stupid listens to and fortunately half the population falls in the sub 100IQ camp and those people can't understand intellectual, deep topics - what they CAN understand is simple black and white arguments and blame those illegals for my ills.
Yup umm it was cold outside today Billy-Bob - so dat der global warming is false. Yup - there's the science for you.
It's not about being elitest - it's about stupid people not being cocksure that they are ALWAYS RIGHT when they have fraking no clue about the topic they are discussing but INSTEAD rely on tertiary and secondary sources to SIMPLIFY complexity for them. Like trusting dimwits who cant pass a single University level course on anything.
It's not just stupid people don't believe in Climate Change or Evolution - smart people can be duped but stupid people do get duped more often.
Our brains somewhat trick people as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2euBvdP28c
This is climate change broken down as simple as it gets.
Edits: 06/20/15
You can't afford to purchase a decent stereo system and you are laughing at Rush ,:)
Your above "thesis" moves you from plain ignorant , to Silly Stupid Ignorant, you must be really proud of yourself ...
Regards
Edits: 06/21/15
calm down buddy - it's just a topic about the end of the world - nothing of importance - now back to which colour shakti stone sounds better on which speaker or whether a speaker loses 2dB at 3 meters or 7dB. That's the important stuff.
I read all the ranting but I am left with a question, whose dick is bigger?
When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it. ~ Bernard Bailey
My name is Richard and I'm 5'11 - so chances are I'm the bigger Dick.
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Global warming ....! Wats dat ........?
Nah, that is due to tube amps. :)
I agree it would be better for TAS to refrain from commenting on competitor's reviews. He could have gotten his views across without taking a poke at Fremer. Instead he seems a little petty.
Getting their views across without taking pokes at Valin, JA, each other, et al.
Daniel
Agree. Valin's ego is his biggest enemy.
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