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In Reply to: RE: Why isn't TAS targeted as much as Stereophile? posted by Eldragon on April 29, 2015 at 08:12:41
It's too easy. TAS' ethical transgressions have been pretty well documented everywhere except within the pages of TAS. What is the fun in discussing TAS? On the other hand, there are no such prime examples with Stereophile. My guess is some of the Stereophile critics are the audio equivalent of conspiracy theorists, and actual facts are not required. Their recreation is spewing mere speculation, and facts would ruin their fun.
Follow Ups:
"TAS' ethical transgressions have been pretty well documented everywhere except within the pages of TAS."
It's poor form to make statements like that without providing supporting evidence. Trollish, actually. "well documented", well, maybe not so well documented. "except within the pages of TAS", well, the major issue as I recall was responded to within the pages of TAS.
Best regards,
Daniel
If you've spent any time on these boards, you will recall at least two. Actually, if you've spent more than ten minutes on this board, you will see the thread above wherein an "award" from TAS was accompanied by a hard sell from the magazine's advertising department. Oddly enough, here Stereophile regularly receives accusations of pay to play. TAS? Not so much. Given that Marks was a contributor there, I'll give his statements a little more salt.You may recall the Valin cable debacle, wherein cables loaned to Mr. Valin appeared for sale on Audiogon. The explanation was that he either loaned or gave them to a friend, I forget which, in exchange for his friend helping him move. Um, sure. I usually just give my friends pizza and beer. I think it fair to argue that since TAS did not terminate Mr. Valin's services, at best it accepted the behavior, at worst it condoned the behavior.
If you do some research, you can find Charles Hanson's posts on this forum regarding negative comments in TAS regarding his components shortly following his decision that he would not provide TAS advertising dollars and review samples. These comments, which I've read, were in show reports, which is ironic in that TAS and virtually every magazine I've read cautions us dear readers that a listener cannot reliably make judgments about a component's sound under show conditions. Except, it would appear, when Ayre components are involved.
Then there is the old warhorse, I think generally regarded as truth, about HP "paying" Infinity $1.00 for permanent "use" of their massive IRS system. Granted, that was in the days before the internet, but you can imagine the heads exploding, not to mention the sucking sound of bandwidth deprivation, had JA or another Stereophile writer accepted such a gift, er, I mean, loan.
Edits: 05/04/15
your original post goes beyond the evidence and is factually inaccurate.It's not true that the Valin affair was discussed "everywhere except within the pages of TAS", if we allow discussions on the TAS forums to count as pages of TAS. Valin replied to all of the hard questions that were asked on the forum, you may find the answers unconvincing, but he didn't duck them. Tom Martin also replied at length on Critic's Corner.
Charles Hanson regularly made posts that stated that TAS was corrupt, but the ones I read, they never said exactly how. I replied to one and asked him if he could elaborate on the corruption, and he replied that he didn't have anything specific in mind. But I think when you make charges like that, you better have something specific in mind, otherwise you're just a troll, no matter what your stature in the industry. It's too serious to throw charges like that around without taking the trouble to substantiate them. I believe TAS challenged him legally and won.
It would be naive to think that neither Stereophile or TAS make accommodations to live with manufacturers, as it would be unfair not to recognize that both John Atkinson and Robert Harley try to keep the integrity of their magazines in their own way. Stereophile does a better job of keeping it's editorial content separate from the promotional side, some of TAS's pieces sound like out and out advertorials, and it's buyer's guides are sponsored by manufacturers, but on the whole the editorial staff is pretty good. It has happened that Harley has compared three expensive speakers, advertisers all, and rated them one, two three, okay, that happened on the forum :-), not the magazine, but I've never seen JA do that.
Regarding the advertising department, I don't think an aggressive advertising department is itself an indicator of a corrupt editorial department, as long as the pitch follows, and doesn't precede, the award.
As for HP not paying for equipment, that's reaching a little too far back in the past. Not to say that many of us would have taken HP over the current lot no matter what his troubling ways.
But my basic point: accusations should not be made too freely, and never unsubstantiated, that is the way of the troll. Sure, criticise the magazines, but say something specific that in principle can be replied to.
Daniel
Edits: 05/04/15 05/04/15 05/04/15 05/04/15 05/04/15
You seem to overlook the fact that ads appear regularly in TAS now that quote reviews that are in the same issue. This obviously can only occur if the advertising pitch is preceding the publication of the review content.
What's the difference between a post that says "ads appear regularly in TAS now that quote reviews that are in the same issue ... the advertising pitch is preceding the publication of the review content" and a post that simply says "TAS is corrupt"? You don't see any difference?Daniel
Edits: 05/07/15 05/07/15
"if we allow discussions on the TAS forums to count as pages of TAS."
Why should we? Check out the traffic on the TAS forums versus the circulation of the magazine. They ain't the same, I am afraid.
"Tom Martin also replied at length on Critic's Corner."
That is not the issue. At the time, the first issue was that Valin kept his job. Martin discussing it and Martin terminating an employee who violated his agreement to a manufacturer are two different things. The second issue is how would inmates here respond if a Stereophile reviewer did the same thing? Some inmates here berate JA for fabricated transgressions. Many of those same inmates, for reasons known only to themselves, never commented on a real transgression by a TAS employee whose name appears towards the top of the masthead.
"Charles Hanson regularly made posts that stated that TAS was corrupt, but the ones I read, they never said exactly how."
I think you are confusing two issues which Hanson discussed. The one issue he discussed was the Valin debacle. As a manufacturer who sends out review samples, I think he is in a unique position to discuss the trust which a manufacturer places upon a reviewer to abide by the rules of the loan. I believe he criticized TAS for its failure to terminate their employee for the transgression. Does that amount to TAS being corrupt? I guess that depends upon your ethical standards.
The second issue which he discussed were the negative comments TAS began lobbing at Ayre components based upon auditions at trade shows shortly following his decisions to not advertise in the magazine and to not send them review samples. If you've read virtually every audio publication, including TAS, which covers trade shows, you've no doubt read the disclaimer that it is impossible to render a judgment about a component at those trade shows. I do read TAS in my local library. I've read the negative comments regarding Ayre components in the show reports, which would seem to violate the aforementioned statements. Connection? I do read negative comments about the sound of other components at trade shows, but those comments are always accompanied by a caveat: It was a difficult room, they were having electrical problems, I've heard the component in another system sound great, so it can't be the component, etc.
TAS challenged him legally? That is a new one on me.
"It has happened that Harley has compared three expensive speakers, advertisers all, and rated them one, two three, okay, that happened on the forum."
I read Harley's pieces, and while I will not claim to have memorized every review he has written for TAS, I do read his and Valin's review looking for comparisons. I don't see them in Harley's printed prose. I've just started reading them in Valin's.
"Regarding the advertising department, I don't think an aggressive advertising department is itself an indicator of a corrupt editorial department, as long as the pitch follows, and doesn't precede, the award."
Well, that is not what Marks wrote. I am paraphrasing what he wrote, which is that when the manufacturer did not respond with the advertising check, Marks' positive comments, were, um, edited out.
Contrast that with Stereophile. Tellig apparently left the magazine under less than amicable circumstances, and thus far has been a proverbial bull in a china shop since his retirement from audio reviewing. And yet we have heard nothing about editorial pressures placed to bear in favor of an advertiser at Stereophile, about his positive comments being stricken from a review because a manufacturer refused to play ball, etc.
And yet the Stereophile bashers continue to spew innuendo without so much as a response to Marks' thread. Odd.
"As for HP not paying for equipment, that's reaching a little too far back in the past."
Except for two things. First, the questionable and unethical behavior continues into the modern era. And second, had JA done the same thing, there would be no shelf life.
"accusations should not be made too freely, and never unsubstantiated, that is the way of the troll."
I agree. Which is why I provided concrete behavior on the part of TAS which leads me to believe it is an organization run with questionable ethical practices and ethical lapses. On the other hand, those who claim Stereophile is corrupt have yet to provide a concrete example, so if you believe those folks are trolls, then I would agree.
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