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In Reply to: RE: Why isn't TAS targeted as much as Stereophile? posted by soulfood on April 29, 2015 at 14:57:50
>>Back in the day there were many industry professionals who were active on
>>the Asylum, but the relentless trolling drove them away.
>
>If they themselves were not trolls, a better description is in order.The industry professional were not trolls, it was the inmates who appeared to declare
open season on them who were the trolls, much as you can see in some of the responses
to my postings.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Edits: 04/29/15 04/29/15Follow Ups:
Charles Hanson certainly was, when he posted short unsubstantiated messages about TAS being corrupt, and wouldn't back it up when asked about it in followups, said that he didn't have anything specific in mind. He'd post that TAS writers were corrupt, but if presented with a list, he couldn't say that any of them were corrupt. If that's not trolling, I don't know what trolling is. I have no idea why the Bored allowed those posts, as they broke all the rules.I thought at the time you might have posted a gentle rebuke, but of course you had no obligation to do so, still I can't imagine that you condoned those posts.
I liked Charles Hanson. He had excellent and interesting posts on other topics, and was always willing to engage.
Daniel
Edits: 05/05/15 05/05/15 05/05/15 05/05/15
it's undisputed that many thousands of dollars worth of Nordost cables on loan to Valin went "missing" including a set that turned up on Audiogon. Rightly or wrongly, Hansen cut all ties with TAS because he was unsatisfied with how Harley handled the issue (it's been years since Ayre has placed an ad or submitted gear for review). I suppose it's arguable whether TAS is corrupt (I guess it depends on how credible you think Valin's "moving" story is), but I don't see how Hansen was "trolling" TAS. Up until that point, his gear had been favorably reviewed by TAS. What would be gained by "trolling"? As I see it, Hansen's decision to part ways with TAS has come at no small cost: Valin has used his bully-pulpit to take pot-shots at Ayre and Ayre lost all visibility in the 2nd largest US audio magazine.
When Charles Hanson posts "TAS is corrupt" (no reasons given), that's not a troll, but when Sprezza Tura posts Stereophile skewers non advertisers (spurious reasons given) that is a troll?
Daniel
Did you not read my post or any posts in the linked thread? Or, maybe, you're talking way over my head?
I have not accused Sprezza of trolling, simply opined that his evidence of Stereophile only giving bad reviews to non-advertisers to be incomplete, at best. So, not sure why you added that bit.
You never read a post by Charles Hanson that stated "TAS is corrupt" and stopped there? You may have missed the follow up. Me: Could you explain the corruption? Charles: I wasn't thinking of anything specific. Or another. Charles: TAS writers are corrupt. Me: That's interesting, what about these TAS writers? Charles: I have nothing against those writers.
It doesn't make any difference what the background story is, or what "everybody knows", and so on. Those individual posts were trolls.
Daniel
As the bell tolls .............. :)
They used to post regularly but more than one inmate was beyond rude to most anything they would post. I think I saw a recent post from Victor Khomenko, maybe Ralph Karsten (sp?) but that's about it.
.
Some industry people are here to be audiophiles first, and leave their business interests at the door to varying degrees. Those are the people I most appreciate. Some are here to defend their interests and only pop up when somebody says something negative about their work. They could just stay away IMHO. Some are here solely to promote their product, and sadly some are given wide latitude to do it and others not. Some blend in and you hardly notice their affiliation, and others really throw their ego around. And finally, some do a bit of all of the above.
I hate to see trolls drive away the industry participants who are good contributors, but then again I wish some industry people would just get lost. Overall, I think the Rod and the rest of the Bored do a pretty good job of keeping this place friendly to industry participation but not too friendly.
You're right. And that actually is part of the problem.If "high-end" audio was really just about loving music, we could have participants here listening to their am/fm clock radios while others are listening to $1M SOTA-level systems and there'd probably far fewer disputes.
Or if this industry was truly performance-oriented like say Formula 1 or Top Fuel drag racing, there'd still be far few disputes. Sure they may disagree with the benefits of a turbo vs a supercharger, or using 1 Magneto vs 2, or Goodyear Slicks vs M/T slicks but they still agree on slicks, so they are all still very much on the same general page and still shooting at the same general performance target.
"High-end" audio ain't like that. Not even close. And you can forget being on the same general page shooting at the same general target. We're lucky if some of us are on the same planet or even the same galaxy.
For example, probably half of those who consider themselves high-end enthusiasts or audiophiles think all cables and components are transparent to the signal and hence all sound identical.
Probably 2/3rd's don't believe in electronic component burn-in,
Probably 1/2 of the participants believe that a product's measurements are the holy grail and literally have ceased using their ears to discern a product's performance - because to their untrained ears everything sounds the same.
I'd venture 98% think they have clean and distortion-free AC coming in from the street because they live within 2000 miles of a sub-station.
Another half probably thinks that price alone determines a playback system's level of musicality.
Shoot, there's a guy out there who believes all cables and components are transparent to the signal and considers measurements alone to be the holy grail because he considers his ears as untrustworthy and useless appendages. In an audio industry mind you. To top it off, he wrote a book called "THE AUDIO EXPERT" and even has customers following his advise and purchasing his products and he's even sat on an expert panel at a recent AES convention.
For all I know, you're one of those and for all you know I am too. Yet, here we are participating in the same forum.
As for well-known mfg'ers participating in these forums, that can be a really good thing. But it can also be pretty bad too. Especially with the more narcissistic ones. And the groupies that can flock to them and hang on their every word whether true or false ain't helping much neither.
I call this an industry in chaos. But to others, it seems that if somebody disagrees with the majority, they must be trolling.
In the end I suspect what you're really saying is that you're willing to tolerate everybody but the intolerant.
And if that is true, doesn't this post of yours make you a troll?
Edits: 05/02/15
I've been here since 2001 and don't remember many who've stopped posting due to harassment. VPI, JWeiss, Khomenko, Karsten, tt designer Mosin, Soundsmith, recently the guy from Phoenix/Roadrunner, a number of dealers and reviewers/editors post on AA. When he wasn't posting here on Critics to rail against Valin/TAS Charles Hansen's posts were very informative and helpful, but its possible health problems caused his absence, dunno.So who are all the "industry people" who've split due to inmates' behavior?
Edits: 04/30/15
Just noting that several manufacturers have stopped coming by here.
I imagine that Hansen's health issues have slowed his forum participation but I don't think that's why he quit posting here. Most recently, I saw his posts on Inner Fidelity. Here's one of his posts:
"Hi Tyll
Submitted by Charles Hansen on March 28, 2015 - 1:51am
You seem to have a well-behaved group here, which is a welcome change from many forums. I'm not sure how long I'll be able to contribute as I've a lot on my plate. But it's always fun to meet new people.
Cheers,
Charlie Hansen"
IME, Charlie Hansen never had much to say anyhow...
nt
Curl, Rankin (who posted last in 2013) and Hansen (who posted in 2014) are about it IIRC. Hardly the "....many industry professionals...." JA claimed.
I started doing Audio Asylum some time after most of the industry people left. I didn't know about them until I was told the same story as john states by a good friend who has been in the industry for decades. I was astounded that designers who were industry legends left Audio Asylum because of attacks by self proclaimed experts. It's always astounded me how many audiophiles with no background think they know more than the people who designed the gear they bought. It's especially astounding given that I'm sure that as a whole audiophiles are very smart and very well educated, way above the national norms. And yet when it comes to audio many of them turn off their logic and education.
It's criminal these audio designers left the Audio Asylum. They deserve our thanks, not our attacks. And the Asylum is so much poorer for their absence.
"The industry professional were not trolls, it was the inmates who appeared to declare open season on them who were the trolls, much as you can see in some of the responses to my postings."
This is a little too vague and varied. Exactly, when did these unabated purgings occur? Links to some of your related postings would be clarifying.
with his time then spend it looking and providing links to troll posts for you. You know, you can search also?
"John probably has better things to do with his time then spend it looking and providing links to troll posts for you."
As indicated in my 4/30 post in this thread I'm not crying out, 'Trolls,Trolls!', and I'm not going to aimlessly search for them via a fool's errand.
If you're really that interested use the search function and figure it out. Examples of trolling on manufacturers, publishers and reviewers are plentiful. You could start with your own posts on this thread, for example.
.
...have you searching for your own little PREdicAMENT? :^)
Edits: 04/30/15
I didn't introduce this thread's sub-topic, pitting industry professional against AA. I'm also not interested in wasting time, separating what might be skewed facts from old wives tales buried in the past."Examples of trolling on manufacturers, publishers and reviewers are plentiful."
I find the perspective (projection?) of some groups being immune to trolling to be disturbing.
"You could start with your own posts on this thread, for example."
You're welcome to your off-the-cuff, troll- policing opinion.
Edits: 04/30/15
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