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24.21.8.3
In Reply to: RE: "jump factor" is what vinyl reproduction has in spades posted by hifitommy on August 23, 2014 at 02:05:32
IMO, and contrary to popular belief, the "jump factor" has more to do with a misperception of the live performance and more to do with a "wow" factor e.g. wow, I can't believe my electronics just startled me or caused me to jump.
As I mentioned to JA below, an extreme example might be the dynamics of a 45-caliber gun shot within say 5 feet of me would certainly cause a jump factor every time. But that same gun shot going off 50 - 75 ft away simply does not invoke the same intimate startling jump factor.
If that gun shot 75 feet away doesn't cause me to "jump" I seriously doubt there's any note a band on stage like say Boston at 115 db that's gonna' cause me to jump, provided I'm seated well into the audience.
It might help to remember that many recordings are closely mic'ed. And though the mastering engineer can do wonders to give the listener a perspective from deep within the audience, there's little the mastering engineer can do to compensate for the kick drum's initial attack causing great movement of the recording mic's diaphragm 6-inches away from the drum skin. Under the right circumstances, that great recording mic diaphragm movement will be reproduced at the playback speakers.
In some ways, I suppose the "wow" factor of the "jump" factor is not much different than listening to a flutist breathing between the notes where even the most untrained casual listener will exclaim, "Wow, I can hear him breath." Well, of course we can, because the recording mic is perhaps inches from the artists' mouth, but that doesn't mean it's natural.
In the end, I do not consider the "jump" factor having anything to do with natural dynamics of the live performance. Rather I suspect it has more to do with closely mic'ed recordings, playback volume levels, and sometimes over-amplification at the playback system where potentially every strike, pluck, or blatt can cause the listener to "jump", as though for these initial attacks the listener's ears are on stage next to the instruments.
I suspect the Triangle speakers used in JA's review may have been a bit more sensitive to his electronics than his other speakers, thus exhibiting a bit more of this "jump" factor.
And though always impressive, the startling dynamic swings of the live performance always occur at a good distance up on stage where your ears are not. Never in the audience, where you are seated.
When you are able to hear all or nearly all of the significant dynamics of a recorded performance occurring as though at a distance up on the soundstage and you're seated well into the audience for every last note, that's when you're actually getting closer to the live performance. Whereas, a component like speakers (or a format like vinyl) that causes a unique character trait that induces a startle or a jump, may be telling the listener this speaker (or format) is unique when compared to the others, that may not be a good thing, even if it is impressive every single time.
If the Triangles are more sensitive than the other speakers in the audition and assuming all other things being equal, I would be more interested in the Triangles for this additional sensitivity. However, I would be compelled to correct this jump factor since it's really just pointing out a potential flaw elsewhere in my playback system that needs to be addressed to ensure all dynamics are occurring up on stage where they belong.
Follow Ups:
any time the equipment causes the surprise of jump to the listener. what i referred to as jump factor is when there is a sudden instrumental change that surprises the listener. the same passage in a digital recording will often not provide the same rapidity of change as in one on LP.
LP has this superiority over rbcd nearly every time. sacd and dvda can also do this as likely can the other high rez formats but not rbcd.
...regards...tr
It seems as though you didn't even bother to read my response. Oh, well.
Can we at least agree that the "Wow factor" might be a better way to describe what you're experiencing? As in, "Wow!!! I can't believe my electronics caused me to jump yet again almost as though my ears are inches from the instruments during the initial attack, but my butt is planted well into the audience for the remainder of the notes."
Reminds of an old joke.
A mouse walks into a bar and sits on a stool next to a pretty elephant. When the bar closes the mouse and elephant leave together. The next morning the mouse comes staggering into the same bar and sits on a stool. The bartender says, "Hey, I remember you. You were in here last night and went home with that elephant. You look tired as all git out. How come?" The mouse replied, "Yeah, I'm pretty tired alright. Between the kissin' and the screwin' I musta ran 200 miles last night."
That's what your ears are doing with every Wow factor you and others are experiencing. Running back and forth to the soundstage for every Wow factor you encounter. Regardless of format, including RBCD.
it seems that we all have a different definition of the expression jump factor. sure, a gunshot makes you jump but when a pianist shifts quickly to a more forward musical phrase, LP seems to have more capability of conveying this.
i also expect sacd or a hi rez download such as 24/96 or 24/192 will have this capability as well. i don't have the setup for hi rez digital playback except for sacd/dvda OR LP.
having WAY more vinyl than hi rez, it's where i get to hear that jump. in reading about the PS Audio perfect wave dac in the current Stereophile makes me wonder if its replay format of rbcd could render the same thing. read it and you may identify with what i am saying.
...regards...tr
I love these responses, as most seem to imply that it is a certain COMPONENT (speaker, whatever) or METHOD (analog, digital) of the reproduction chain that may be "at fault".How about what's trying to be reproduced. Think a live concert [Atlanta Symphony] - but more to the point - a composer / arranger "setting you up" - to jump: like Haydn's Surprise symphony; or a Big Band call and response - soloist.. quiet..full backup section.
Your playback system "rounds off / slows down" transients - electrodynamic speakers are probably the biggest offenders. Working back towards the front of the recording chain - like low generation master tapes helps but then the system (recording and playback) ssslllooowww things down mitigating the jump factor.
Charles
Maybe a more universal question is "does/how does your system convey EMOTION"? Do you care?
Do you ever cry? When you listen to music or when the Mastercard bill comes...
Edits: 09/02/14 09/02/14 09/02/14 09/02/14
" a composer / arranger "setting you up" - to jump: like Haydn's Surprise symphony; or a Big Band call and response - soloist.. quiet..full backup section."
Right. Sounds like the jump factor happens all the time in your neck of the woods.
Next time you're at a concert and you're seated in the audience, count how many times you "jump" or even want to jump. Better yet, think back to you earlier years when you might have attended a concert and try to remember if you ever jumped once from the surprise attack of a music note at 120 db.
Okay, so maybe Ted Nugent made you jump once at one of his concerts as you will filling your bong and maybe it was because you were in direct line of a speaker on stage.
It's just plain silly to think your playback system is doing marvelous things if you're jumping around like a little jumping bean.
You may indeed love the emotional and engaging phenomena because it has a warped sense of liveliness. But it simply has little or nothing to do with live music. Unless of course, you're on your lunch hour in a small cafeteria and 6 ft in front of you is a mariachi band ringing in cinco de mayo at festive volume levels. Sure that's live music, but hopefully that's not the type of venue we're talking about.
And yes, in the end you can blame much of what you hear on your playback system. In case nobody's told you lately it's essentially a guarantee that your system sounds nothing like live music.
But far be it from me to say there's something wrong with jump factors or listening to little maracas sounding like 3ft. diameter instruments or cymbals that sound 10 ft. tall. It's all wonderful and exciting phenomena. In fact, when compared to many "fine" systems, I'd prefer this phenomena over some flat, lifeless, 2D soundstage pasted against the back wall that is anything but musical.
It just that such phenomena has little to do with reasonable live music in a reasonable venue.
Noted! Thanks
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