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In Reply to: RE: Some further points posted by morricab on July 23, 2014 at 02:10:21
I did several months back and it wound up being a spiral thread.
Basically in America - if you get paid for ditch digging you are a professional. Anything you get a dollar for makes you a professional. A child who gets a weekly allowance is a professional child.
The term in the U.S. is merely $$$$=Professional regardless of what it is.
The way you use the term is correct. I am professional teacher and if I do something out of character or dishonest the teaching profession can take my certification away from me. The professional body of my peers can remove me from the field of work. Same for Lawyers, Doctors etc. A so called professional reviewer could be doing all sorts of illegal and criminal things and get caught for it and go to jail - but can come out and still be a reviewer. They are not banned from the field for life - if your best friend is an editor then you can theoretically have a job for life regardless. The owner of the magazine can make the sole judgement (at will) where as professional bodies make the decision and even if the company owner wants to hire the teacher or lawyer - he/she can't. And that's a big big difference.
That said I don't think any reviewer is a professional reviewer because there is no "college of professional reviewers"
I don't think it has to do with writing style either. Srajan's style may not be your cup of tea but that is a very subjective standard - people think Steven King is a hack who can't write either - but he's easier to understand than reading Shakespeare, Chaucer, or even Dickens. What style one reader likes another may not so writing style doesn't have anything to do with being a professional.
Knowledge of the technical side of the gear. Well I assume JA is a member of an engineering school or professional body of engineering - Colloms is. So this gets us to part way there. Colloms being a certified electrical engineer can talk "professionally" about the engineering of audio components and the measurements section in Stereophile can be trusted at least in terms of what they measure (which doesn't cover stuff people can actually hear most of the time but that's another issue).
But it doesn't follow that because Colloms or JA can measure an amplifier's impedance curve or box resonance that they can evaluate the sound of music coming from the stereo any better than a 15 year old girl who plays the cello. Indeed, the latter will likely have vastly superior hearing to any 60 year old audio reviewer. They may not have the so called experience but they will very likely have much better hearing sensitivity and can detect more problems in the entire treble band than any 60+ year old or for that matter any 40+ year old "professional."
I think the term should simply be reviewer. Or "Paid Reviewer"
I taught in South Korea - they hired any white person (a bit racist there) with a degree in anything to teach children. There is a difference between a trained professional teacher and a guy with a degree in (enter any subject here) who is hired to teach kids. It's like having a doctor do heart surgery on you versus a guy with a journalism degree who watched the TV show House and operates on you. Both may get paid - but which one are you going to want and call a professional.
Follow Ups:
An education degree by no means guarantees more than rudimentary proficiency in ANY of the subjects one is hired to teach. Would you rather learn biology from someone who has a degree in the subject and has worked as a biologist for years, or from someone with an education degree who has taken the minimum requisite six credit hours in biology?
In my high school, biology was taught by the baseball coach, who refused to even mention evolution because he was a creationist and didn't believe in it. But hey, he was a certified professional teacher!
Well I don't live in the U.S. Becoming a teacher in British Columbia Canada is far more rigorous than the U.S. I am told. (and it may be a State to State issue than a U.S. issue I am not sure).But in Canada if you want to teach High School Biology then you need to hold a full 4 year 120 credit B.Sc degree in Biology in order to teach Biology. Ditto Chemistry or Physics or Math. To teach English or Social Studies you need a 4 year B.A in English or History/Geography. They soften that a bit if it's a complimentary field like if you have a History major English minor you may teach English. They will also take people with language intensive degrees like Philosophy or Liberal Studies.
This applies to grades 10-11-12. A P.E. teacher with an arts minor may very well get socials 8-9 or English 8-9. But unless there are no teachers they should be hiring trained sunject teachers. And yes to teach P.E. you need a physical education degree - it too will run 5.5 years. If they don't hire the right people that is management/governmental problems not the teacher's fault or the union's fault.
Knowing a lot about a subject and being an effective teacher however is not the same thing. It is entirely possible to learn FAR MORE from a teacher who is just steps ahead of the students in the material than someone with a PHD in the field but is a boring lifeless arrogant drip.
Teaching is not the same as lecturing at a university. Lecturing isn't teaching and indeed HS teachers in Canada generally get paid more than University professors. Man I wish I could just deliver the material in an entertaining way. The teachers in BC not only have to have a specialized degree in an actual subject (even if teaching Kindergarten) they also have to have a bunch of other courses.
Another 1.5 years on top of the BA teaching them how to actually teach as well as subjects like educational theory from math, to literacy, to philosophy, to discipline, special needs, psychology, professionalism, anger management, dealing with parents, educational report writing, stress management, linguistics, Physical Education, Second language learning, and of course computer programs from smart boards to legalities of copyright etc.
So in Canada you have to have a 5.5 year dual degree. K-12. And to get in to the education field you have to hold an A-(3.70 GPA) average or better through your BA or B.Sc
In my case I did a concurrent degree program where I did both my education degree and B.A. at the same time. This gave me more practicum experience and allows me to teach K-12 instead of choosing between High School and elementary school. I also had a bunch of Business Credits to lighten my load because I worked in Accounting for 8 years and had half a business degree. I'm 9 credits away from a triple minor. Cause that's kinda how crazy I am.
Anyway, this gave me 4 practicums.
Each year the student teacher is given a grade. And you work with the classroom teacher to deliver lessons. Maybe one 45 min lesson a day to start.
This grows to teaching half days to 3-4 weeks where I had to teach 80-100%. You write a fourish page lesson plan for each lesson each day. Elementary is harder in this regard because I had to write one for say Science, English, Socials, P.E. and Art each day. So about 20-24 pages a day. Describing what you will say, what the students should be doing, and have two portions dedicated to weaker and better students (Adaptations and Extensions) and how you will compensate and deliver the lesson to them.
For instance i had prepare "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe" for the class as a novel study but because 2 kids were Jehovah Witness I had to do a totally different book for them.
So if you have a set of ten questions did you make another set of ten for the weaker kids and another set of 10 for the gifted kids.Then the class teacher sits in the back and writes an evaluation, the school principal does one, and evaluator from the university (who is usually an ex principal or superintendent.
And I did this for grade 7, grade 2, grade 10-12, grade 4. And each of those practicums has three different evaluators. So 12 people over 3 years evaluate us and determine if we're good beginning teachers.
It's kind of intense. I would not say the work is insanely difficult - but it is a LOT of work and it's not that easy to continuously come up with fascinating wholly entertaining vibrant lessons over and over across all subjects.
Now you are correct that some school districts (in Canada too) will run into situations where they hire the wrong people for the job based on availability and union protectionism (hiring based on seniority over qualifications).
Your example though is different because a lot of school districts in the U.S. appear to be spending copious amounts of time in court battling over the FACT of evolution and the superstition of creationism. I would not be surprised if bricks weren't being thrown through windows of Biology teachers in certain states.
IMO creationists should not be allowed to teach. If they're this ignorant they should be nowhere near a school except in them and retaking classes.
It should lastly be pointed out that this is high school not university. So Biology or English Literature at best would be entry level university level courses. The content being taught is not nearly as rigorous.Unfortunately, in the US there is a lot of money tied to content as special interest groups (religion or companies) only provide money if certain things are taught or not taught. Education needs to be free of that sort of influence and it's actually okay for Education to NOT be run in the black. It's not meant to. But I understand a company like say a Coke that will only give their tens of thousands so long as the teachers have a gag order that never lets them say Coke is bad for you.
This is beginning in my home province in Canada as well. And the Prime Minister of our country and your former president I get the sense thinks the earth is 6000 years old. So what can you do? When people don't believe 2+2=4 and you dumb it down as much as you can - and they still insist that evolution is fake and merely a trick by the devil to test people's faith what can you do?
What you don't do is give them keys to schools or the government or sharp objects.
Edits: 08/17/14 08/17/14
RGA:
With all due respect,you may be knowledgeable about teacher training and instruction in Canada; that makes good sense. However, you should own up to not knowing know your you know what from a hole in the wall about public schools in the United States.Just do experience American educators a favor and keep your hands off the key board about that subject, which includes, but is not limited to: teacher training and certification, pedagogy, curriculum, class room instruction, the impact of fundamentalist religion on curriculum and instruction, hiring and retaining teachers, or school funding. Finally, you are ignorant of the critical issues that now face public schools in the United States. So please, avoid like the plague subjects that are beyond your reach and your grasp. Stick to reviewing equipment and retelling your teaching and audio experiences abroad.
What did I say about the US Education system. I described the Canadian system and then only in British Columbia.
The person I replied to said he found a teacher with 6 credits teaching science where he believed in Creationism.
Now anyone who is NOT an utter moron would take his commentary and say gee wherever he is from seems to be handing out education degrees in Pez dispensers.
I not once said I knew the ins and outs of the US education system - anyone who isn't a total and utter moron would know this.
My comments are about where I am from - and anyone who isn't an utter moron read where I specifically noted such.
lord addleford,
There's no way that the smug opinionated RGA is going to change. As the weary old cliché goes, "a Leopard doesn't change its spots". The fool can't learn to hold his opinions (about things he obviously knows nothing about) to himself. I suggested that tactic to him about a week ago, but his latest rant only goes toward proving my point.
Perhaps the reason that he's "teaching" in Asia is that the Canadians can't stand him either.
Cheers,
Al
abs1:
I try mightily not to respond to the general flow of RGA's dribble. But, when it comes to education, a field in which I worked for thirty plus years, he has gone over the edge. The problem is that he can't control his impulses to spew forth his supposed wisdom in any domain. From time to time he makes an attempt at self deprecation, but we all know that it has no meaning and his spewing continues ad nauseam. All we can do is not respond to his drivel; regardless, ignoring him will have no effect on his output. As Kurt Vonnegut wrote, "So it goes"
la
I have several friends who have taught and have been principal for 30+ years in the Canadian education system - so which FACT did I get wrong and I will run it by them.
For someone who is a so called teacher why don't you teach instead of slagging people constantly. Have an actual case. Tell me what I said that irritates you.
If you read the first paragraph I said "(and it may be a State to State issue than a U.S. issue I am not sure).
See if you were not a total moron you would have read that I clearly state that I do not know exactly how things are run in the U.S. I have met several teachers from the United States who have told me various things about hiring standards. So what the truth about those things are I do not know - AND I SAID THAT!
Now I could tell you all the things I've been told but it is beyond the scope of this thread.
The OP noted what he saw with the educational standard of a science teacher. Now it is not being arrogant to state the Science should not be taught by guys with 6 credits of science or a guy who believes in creationism - these people are stupid and it is not arrogant to call them stupid because stupid is stupid. Willful ignorance is stupid.
So I told the OP where I am coming from with my comments and how unlike it is from the science teacher he was talking about.
I am stunned that you seem to read these conversations and never ever see the big picture point. Instead you seem to deliberately look at minutiae. Same with the PTSD fellow who out of the whole post freaks out because I got the rank wrong. I mean you have to be deliberately stupid - I am looking for the haha camera where I am being pranked.
RGA,
Perhaps you and I could meet face to face so I could personally explain all of this to you. It appears that some individuals, even teachers, can only understand what they choose to understand until they are personally shown the error of their ways.
Until then,
Al
they don't have the knowledge to know the traditional and/or official name of their country.
You are anti-American: i've met Canadians (sorry to capitalize the name as they hardly deserve it) who pretend to teach English when they just travel throughout the Asian region.
roger wang.
I never really get comments like this. Bill Maher loves America too - you can criticize something and still love it.
The word professional seems to me to be used in an incorrect way in the U.S. Professional belong to unions and/or have a professional body that grants and removes credentials.
Professional Athletes like in the NHL or MLB belong to a union and the union could in theory take action against one of their players.
I don't really care - I just think this is a rare instance where there are not "enough" words to separate the terms.
In Canadian and British English we use the word Cheque and Check.
I will check that we mailed your cheque to you. In the US this would be I will check that we mailed your check to you. In the US they take out and simplify words but it requires a reading for context.
The word professional is pretty solid and in the US they seem to now just take it to mean that anyone who gets paid for something no matter how pedestrian it is a "professional" which implies that the job they do is a "profession" - it's not.
One should say - I make a living reviewing audio gear or I am a paid reviewer or I am an audio equipment reviewer. Since no reviewer belongs to a reviewing profession or can be kicked out of the field of reviewing by a professional body of their peers then they do not belong to a profession and as such are not professionals.
Some might view this as nitpicky as the split infinitive but if it's good enough for Gene Roddenberry it's good enough for me "To Boldy Go Where No Man Has Gone Before" is incorrect but it sounds right.
If professional reviewer sounds right fine but my problem with it is that implies that reviewers are "better" in some way at discerning differences in audio gear or have better hearing or more experience than those who do not review.
It's the same with professional dieticians - snake oil science that people get paid a living to do to imply that they are in some way related to the medical field - they're absolutely not. It's the dumbing down of professions and turning science into schlock. No doubt there may be an agenda behind doing just that.
You don't need a teaching degree to teach in Asia. I have met some very good non credentialed teachers who should go into the field get the degree and get paid double. Others I have met should absolutely in no way be put within 50 feet of kids.
I am Canadian and while I was teaching in South Korea - I liked the Americans far better than most of the Canadians (stick up their bottoms). And because I wasn't a jerk - I was invited to the military base in Seoul to have dinners with the soldiers.
And there was this woman - a Navy Seal Sniper doing her masters in psychology - she could kill me with two fingers - I was in love. Ahem but that's a whole other topic.
because i called out your baseless claims.
so, do Canadians know their own country's (full) name? that would seem pretty fundamental before you start analyzing other country's knowledge.
oh, and "professional" has two meanings in any use of english that i have seen or observed: standing or ability and non-voluntary work. canadians use it in both senses.
roger wang.
What are you blabbing about? Your strawman is nonsensical. If person is an expert on German History and comes from Argentina but doesn't know the origins of his own country's flag doesn't mean he is no longer an expert on German History.
Kanata is a First Nations name that was later changed to Canada. Not exactly sure why you're focused on the term "Dominion of Canada" - maybe have an actual point to your discussion that is a straight line from A to B.
From OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY
Non Professional: Relating to or engaged in a paid occupation that does not require advanced education or training.
You are NOT a professional if you meet the above criteria - so to the burger flippers and audio reviewers - you are NOT a professional if you did not require advanced education or training in the field.
PERIOD!
The difference is in the use of the term as a verb versus the use of the word as a noun. One can act "professionally" or in a "Professional" manner and not be a Professional belonging to a profession.
Profession:
"1 [countable] a type of job that needs special training or skill, especially one that needs a high level of education the medical/legal/teaching, etc. profession to enter/go into/join a profession (British English) the caring professions(= that involve looking after people)He was an electrician by profession.She was at the very top of her profession.2 the profession [singular + singular or plural verb] all the people who work in a particular type of profession The legal profession has/have always resisted change.3 the professions [plural] the traditional jobs that need a high level of education and training, such as being a doctor or a lawyer employment in industry and the professions4 [countable] profession of something a statement about what you believe, feel or think about something, that is sometimes made publicly
Synonym
declarationa profession of faith His professions of love did not seem sincere.
While the term has been softened by some outfits and some definitions from the 19th century to include other careers - the things that still seem to be required to be considered in a profession is that the career has professional development requirements (union standing which usually forces members to keep up with their standing) and belonging to a community that can revoke your professional standing.
An Audio Reviewer does not belong to any of that. The reviewer may be professional in his dealings with manufacturers and his responsibilities - verb - but he/she does not belong to a profession of audio equipment reviewers.
At best it could be said that the term has loosened to include any career with established training
"Nowadays, the number of professions is much wider and ever-increasing, as occupations become more specialised in nature and more ‘professionalised’ in terms of requiring certain standards of initial and ongoing education – so that anything from automotive technicians to web designers can be defined as professionals."
"What is a profession? We are all familiar with doctors, solicitors and accountants but the list of professions runs into the hundreds covering a huge range of sectors including building, engineering, business, education, technology, hospitality, sciences, the environment, finance, research, information, health, and culture.
A profession is a job or an occupation that requires a certain level of specialist training. Professions rely on expertise and specialised knowledge, as well as ethical behaviour.
Professions are almost always regulated, either by law or through membership of a professional body. Regulation ensures that professionals provide a quality service to the public.
Most professions are represented by a professional body, and professional bodies are responsible for providing a code of conduct for their members which guides their professional behaviour so that the public can be assured of being treated properly.
Why become a professional? At a basic level, you’ll earn more money! And you’ll have an interesting, worthwhile and challenging career in an area where you’ll become an expert. Total Professions offers professional career advice from the professional bodies as well as information on the top professions." http://totalprofessions.com/more-about-professions
And again no reviewer needs to meet any of these criteria.
Now I'm seriously beginning to doubt your veracity, RGA.
"And there was this woman-a Navy Seal Sniper doing her masters in psychology- she could kill me with two fingers- I was in love."
FYI - there are no female US Navy SEALs, and there won't be any until 2016 when females will be introduced to SEAL training in San Diego, CA.
So in deference to your self-described "professional" status, should I address you as a "professional bullshit artist" or will plain old bullshit artist suffice?
Al
That's what I was told. A marine sniper seal. So I take that to mean Navy seal. If I heard it wrong I apologize as I am not up on US Army or any Army lingo. And it was another teacher who told me about her not someone in uniform.
I'll gladly cop to ignorance of Army ranks, titles. And to be fair my blood wasn't exactly in my brain when I was around her.
This is in SK? You posted above the teachers weren't professionals but yet you use one as a source of information. That doesn't make much sense IMO.
And as an American, IMO you're off base on how folks in the U.S. use professional. Maybe that came from those unqualified SK teachers getting big heads and calling themselves professionals.
A field of endeavor (endeavour in case you don't understand) such as the law, medicine, the clergy, accounting (CPAs) are what usually people mean by professional. It is also used to show a distinction in fields that have many amateur practitioners, e.g., golf.
Let's back up.
I am a qualified Teacher with a degree in English/History and a degree in Education and I belong to the college of teachers. Thus I am a professional teacher. I can teach at public schools pretty much around the world. In South Korea, they hire people without teaching degree to teach English (usually private schools who care about money not education). They want a white body in the room. South Korea cracked down and demands a degree in something preferably English. This makes sense because there probably aren't enough fully qualified teachers willing to go to South Korea and often the job doesn't demand what most teachers have to actually do. Standing in front of a class delivering a lesson is merely the tip of the job's iceberg and SK often only demands the tip.
I never said you only needed to take a professional teacher's word for something. I was on a military base - I liked a girl - one of the other people around me who knew her told me about her position. She told me she was a sniper. If I got marine and seal confused or it was related to me incorrectly I call this a minutia irrelevant point. Her rank is about a billion miles away from the point I was making. It's like a guy who makes 100 logical points about a given argument and is wrong about one point that is rather irrelevant and the other side wants to chuck the other 99 arguments away because of one mistake. These people tend to be morons.
Not sure we disagree on the term professional. The point I made was this - just because you earn a living at something doesn't mean you are a professional.
There are lots of professional bodies - if you belong to one you're a professional. Amateur and professional in sports is slightly different but a professional athlete earns a living at it but also belongs to a union which can boot the individual out of the sport for wrongdoing.
The point of all of this is about reviewers. Anyone can slap some sentences together and write a review - whether a movie review or amplifier reviewer. He might even make money on it - but he's not a professional because he does this or happens to be buddies with a guy who decided to give him a reviewing job. I am a teacher and an audio equipment reviewer. I am a professional teacher because i belong to a professional body of teachers and I have professional development. As a reviewer I call myself a reviewer who acts in a professional way.
Doctors work hard for their doctorates - and they deserve their titles. So do people who belong to professions.
I am sorry if I lumped Americans into using the term this way but I get the sense that many in America seem to associate money with being a professional. If you make money no matter what you are a professional. Kind of like some who associate money with being a harder worker or being happy or successful. All of which may have correlations but are not defining characteristics.
RGA, you are truly full of crap! The more you post the worse it gets. You are a right-fighter who is continuously digging the hole that he's burying himself in deeper and deeper.
I don't give a flyin' f**k about your "professional" hangups, the bulls**t stories that you tell in your lame attempts to cover up your lies and mistakes, or your thinly disguised jabs at Americans. Your diatribes radiate an inferiority complex that's second to none.
I see you as a "professional" indoctrinator! A hired hand that really has no business calling himself a teacher. I don't believe that any REAL teacher or educator would admit to belonging in the same "profession" as you.
Stop acting like a cranky little sissy. Stop your lame attempts at justifying yourself. And above all quit using the military to reference your silly bulls**t stories. That would be the right thing to do for both your safety and dignity.
Al
For someone in love, you oddly didn't know her very well.
Love at first sight boys. Okay Lust but she was smokin' and if I can't remember details about name/rank/serial number I was too busy concentrating on not drooling all over myself. She was model good looking - add in the uniform, the brains (number one), and that she could kill a guy with two fingers - was at the time the important bits.
The military folks there were all stand up people and I enjoyed hanging out with all them.
He meant to writer "lust". 'Love ' is reserved for Audio Note.
In that case you should refrain from posting remarks and stories concerning things of which you know nothing about.
Cheers,
Al
I could live with Srajan calling himself a "paid reviewer"...that is the literal truth.
To claim professionalism is a big stretch. If he had a degree in Journalism and did a stint writing for newspapers or other magazines before moving into hifi then we could call him a professional writer/investigator that could migrate into professional reviewer.
Martin Colloms, at least, has shown not only a good technical knowledge he has also demonstrated a remarkable consistency in describing what he hears.
I think the experience of listening has much more to do than just how good the frequency response of your ears are...so I can easily imagine an experienced 60 year old hear more in a recording than a 15 year old whatever.
I dunno there are plenty of 15 year olds who can do a lot of things better than 40-60 year olds.
If you can't hear 14khz and the speaker has an issue at 14khz - I don't care how much experience the reviewer has - he is going to miss it. The 15 year old girl likely won't.
And since I rarely agree with about 90% of the reviewers out there as to what they think is good it's not exactly like there is any real science based preference here or Art Dudley and Michael Fremer would not have polar opposite stereo systems. Both are VERY "experienced" reviewers who hear it and/or value it very differently. Who is right?
This is the problem - everything gets a good review from all us 40+ year olds so from a reader's perspective the value of the reviews get watered down. Having a few classically trained musician teens listening in as a check might not be such a bad idea.
Well, as a 40+ year old I probably hear a lot more like one of the aforementioned reviewers than a 15 year old girl and my tastes and generational likes and dislikes are probably a lot more in line with the "old boys" than the young girls.
Also, you are underestimating what the brain is doing in the hearing process. That limited HF extension is irrelevant because the brain has a pretty amazing pattern recognition system that means it is adjusting all the time to the input data.
I have no doubt that there are 15 year olds out there who can outperform me in a whole host of tasks...but out-observing me is probably not one of them. It is a big part of why I became a scientist in the first place and I now have decades of honing my observational skills and testing them agains the later outcomes. Same for my audio listening. Hearing something is one thing...assigning importance to it something completely else.
and calling an entire culture less professional in abilities is beyond something else.
roger wang
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