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In Reply to: RE: ATM SCM7 vs KEF LS50 posted by Bill the K on June 03, 2014 at 08:52:45
But it was close.
Imagine how boring the internet would be if folks were as civil here as they are in person.
Follow Ups:
Monitor Audio Silver 2.
Five stars on all categories except for 'ease of drive' where it got 4.5 stars.
I'd love to hear a pair. I always liked Monitor Audio.
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that many of them just are just made up."
-Abraham Lincoln
Hmmm...? the basic character of any ATC I ever heard is more in the Dynaudio camp (ballsy/gutsy, dynamic) than the Monitor Audio camp (tilted toward high detail, thin sounding). You can likely tell my preference. ;)
Some of the newer Monitor Audio models, e.g. the Monitor Audio Platinum PL200, are making some progress away from the shrill sound (IMHO) but still no ATC if you ask me.
Never trust an Atom, they Make Up everything!
You are not describing MA that I know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
Yup, me neither.
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that many of them just are just made up."
-Abraham Lincoln
did it for ATC making it that bit more musical? Long live sealed boxes.
Cheers
Bill
"Long live sealed boxes."
Amen!
Rick
It could be the sealed box - Although personally I wouldn't discount that ATC uses a soft dome tweeter over ribbons and metal (the only speaker in the test to use one). Modern ports are fine - bass depth creates more room issues and it takes more time to set them up but a speaker with a port isn't the issue in itself. The ATC 100 which I audition a lot is ported and is superb. Interestingly they are more superb with SET amplifiers than when I heard their active version albeit with the trade-off of volume but on vocals - yowza take them up several notches. Interestly I prefer the SET amps in the store with the ATC over the same SET amps with HE ZU Audio. Although Zu is also a lot less expensive than the ATC bigger ported models.
And so the reason that below a certain size ATC uses sealed designs is because the lighter moving mass of a smaller driver means that the resonant frequency is higher and so there is a lack of control below the port frequency:
QUOTE FROM THE FIFTH ELEMENT, STEREOPHILE MAGAZINE JUNE 2014
Using the SCM19’s 6" mid/woofer
as an example, Lilly said, “A port
would offer control down to 35 or
30Hz, but you still have program material
below that, which can cause significant
motion of the drive-unit and
generate distortion.” Therefore, ATC
uses vented enclosures only in designs
whose woofers of sufficient size and
weight to have a resonant frequency
low enough that the port can control
the woofer and avoid any overexcursions
in the bottom octave.
That entire column is worth reading for the history lesson on the role of sealed-box loudspeakers in early hi-fi. Thanks to the gracious commenters.
In the August issue I write up the ATC SCM19, which I think is a great bargain and could be all the loudspeaker anyone needs.
JM
This can be dealt with in active designs, where you can tune for a 5th or 6th order system using 2nd order boost at Fb, within the excursion limits of the driver. Or by limiting the bandwidth fed to the speaker to just below the knee of the HP slope of the design.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
As far as I know Stereophile has never reviewed one of the big actives.
Imagine how boring the internet would be if folks were as civil here as they are in person.
Ornery:
Stereophile reviewed ATC SCM 70A speakers many moons ago. As I recall J. Gordon Holt said that the 70s called for comparison to the musical instruments they were playing rather than comparison to other speakers.
Larry
" I have been promised their new active domestic speaker toward CES time"
We'll see how it goes. I've found that I don't agree with stereophile that often when it comes to comparisons. Stereophile seems to fixate on minor flaws and fail to adequately appreciate major strengths. This thread may be a good example. Stereophile gave the kefs a class a and the atcs a class c. I bought a pair of active atcs that were custom built as stage monitors for an orchestra. They're beat up, have a 3 foot wide baffle, other imperfections I'm sure, but they're so enjoyable. I think the measurements stereophile does are good overall but I think they're missing something significant. Maybe it's the dynamic linearity I've seen mentioned elsewhere. Maybe you just need to focus on very specific ranges or something. I don't know but there's something more to it.
Imagine how boring the internet would be if folks were as civil here as they are in person.
But I can't believe it still acts like a closed box ultimately. At some point the port and driver get out of phase causing roll off of 24 Db/octave rather than 12 DB/octave like a closed box which will affect driver overhang negatively. Don't take this as a criticism of the ATCs, just an observation. I've loved their 'sound' when I've heard them.
And it may be the reason that I like the Audio Note E because it does not use a high excursion driver and the woofers barely seem to move at high level with deep bass. I am somewhat puzzled by their recommended watt ratings given they claim a benign impedance. Here the dealer actually had the 3 watt Line Magnetic integrated running the 100s. Granted female vocals but still. Sounded really quite good.I had the sealed box AN K/ SPE. I have contemplated re-buying them d ue to the general ease of positioning as oppos d to the bigger models. The bigger ATC models wont work in my space.
Edits: 06/07/14
And, as I find to be often the case with good sealed box designs, you don't have to crank up the volume to have the music have presence.
Is it possible that ATC's high-ish amp power recommendations are slanted toward professional environments were you would expect so much acoustical treatment that you need twice as much power as otherwise?
I used the 20Wpc Class A Lindell pro power amp with some ATCs and they sounded fine.
JM
Ahh that may be true - most home environments are not going to be wall to ceiling treated.
I read the article after my last post (a day of audio for me yesterday buying some NOS tubes). I like the dealer here with his 100s. He also designs and builds his own amplifiers - a tube amp that looks like Darth Vader's personal fighter plane - awesome but only one made.
I think watt specs and sensitivity specs mislead so so many people away from numerous very good amplifiers. Especially when the speakers are going to be placed in live rooms for the most part and chances are audiophiles buy for quality over maximum SPL - a speaker that is pair matched and free from distortion can be played lower but sound clearer.
At $3700 the SCM 19 is I believe exactly the same price as the Audio Note K/Spe. I'll have to try and get them in the same room sometime. There just ain't a lot of nice sealed standmounts in this price range with solid bass and reasonable efficiency. And it's nice to see that both makers seem to prize pair matching and low distortion. I know people who like the K more than the bigger speakers due to its sealed cabinet bass rolloff. I suspect this will be true for some with ATC
One note though I don't really buy into the LS-3/5a argument that smaller ported speakers will be worse. I have reviewed one LS-3/5a (one of the best ones actually) and auditioned the Rogers 15 ohm and 11 ohm various other varieties from Grant Fidelity and I would take either of my two less expensive ported standmounts in the KEF LS-50/Audio Note AX Two. Superior upper mid throughout the treble for a start. Bass is far deeper on these two and while the KEF might be argued to be a bit more one note in the bass - it is at least reproducing bass. The AX Two has less bass slam but it is more tuneful on acoustic instruments - I like them both - they do it differently and they both do it better than any LS-3/5a.
Hong Kong seems to be the world dumping ground of the the LS-3/5a models. Virtually every store here seems to have a set of them.
Remember even 82 Db average is pretty loud and almost any speaker will put out that level at 1 meter with 1 watt. The problem is the occasional large peak like banging a big piano giving 30 Db peaks or more. Then your 20 watt amp is overloaded. But this is rare and good amps recover quickly and the overload is very short time wise.
Where some speakers sound 'powerful' even with small amps is when they are dynamically linear. Then up to the limits of the amp the system sounds bigger than less linear ones.
And I listen rather closely in a medium/small room. Photo perhaps attached.
Yes, I realize the speakers are upside down. The acoustical center is at the level of the woofer bolts near the tweeters, and the couch is low and I slouch. The setup was approved by ATC.
JM
John, it was a much bigger room where JA and you listened to the Vivids. How does these ATCs sound in that room?
Enjoyed the sealed box lesson in the June issue.
Best Wishes
Bill
The two rooms are probably close in cubic volume because this one has a higher ceiling. Both rooms are open to the rear via large arches and the old room also had an open doorless doorway at the right front.
The ATCs sound fabulous. Last night I was listening to the Arkiv Produktion retrospective boxed set, CD 15 I think, Corelli et al. of that era and I had forgotten that one of the pieces in the middle of the CD had some percussion and for a moment I thought that something had fallen off a shelf in the kitchen and I was hearing a reflection/echo off the front wall. I really was startled.
JM
John:
My experience with ATC's passive speakers over the past 15 years (no experience with their new line) is that they're able to eat a lot of power, so if you want a higher volume they can do it with aplomb. They're just a bit "sleepier" with less power, though still fantastic.
And, it's also been my experience that ATC speakers showed a more nimble character with lots of power, when it's of good quality. One highlight for me was hearing the passive 20s hooked up with the dealer's older Chord SPM1200B, though he particularly liked the Coda 10.5s run as monoblocks with the passive 20s.
I've now moved on to active ATCs which are even better than their passive counterparts. Finding a suitable preamp for the active speakers is key.
Larry
When I used video Skype to show the setup to the chaps at ATC, they appeared to be impressed that I was using a Grace m905 Monitor Controller preamp/DAC. Photo in a posting above.
Shortly after my writeup of the m905 ran, Grace shared with me an online warranty registration in which the happy new owner noted that he bought the unit based on my review, that his hopes had been surpassed, and that the $3495 Grace had replaced a $5000 "audiophile approved" DAC and the Grace sounded better.
Online vendors probably offer MBGs but I do not know the precise terms.
FWIW & YMMV.
JM
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