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In Reply to: RE: Let me expand .... posted by 13th Duke of Wymbourne on May 29, 2014 at 15:18:08
At least with digital we are no closer to understanding what makes it really sound good than we were 25 years ago.
I have a 20 year old DAC, the Kinergetics KCD-55 ultra that used from its day the best of the best DAC chipset the UltraAnalog D20400 20 bit ladder type DAC. It measures merely ok by today's standards (not counting the Lector!) but sounds with redbook better than most I have heard. My Monarchy M24 is also at the top of the heap with 20 year old technology (but a true tube output stage).
It used to be thought that if you eliminate the jitter and if you get the linearity sufficiently good then they should all sound the same...similar stupid thinking went with amp design.
What I have found is that DACs based on Ladder technology sound generally better...of course exceptions exist (Audio Aero players are a good example). Maybe our brains really don't like all the funny math going on there to "create" perfection.
The same seems to be true for amps. Read the work of Cheeer and Geddes...Geddes found ZERO correlation with THD and IMD for amp distortion...then he proceeded to find a correlation based on a different set of metrics.
Cheever, approaching the problem from a different direction came up with a slightly different system for judging amp "goodness". The point is that both suggest that poorly measuring amps can sound really good IF they are designed a particular way...the path to the objective IS important it seems.
Follow Ups:
But, don't forget, in this case the thing measured very badly. Generally DACs & CD players all measure 'well' as I'm sure your Kinetics does.
The broader question is that we don't understand what makes really good sound whether analog or digital.
The ladder vs. oversampling DAC is an interesting comparison. I remember ~20years ago a demonstration at the Penta Show, UK, by Prof. Hawksford comparing the two types and we all preferred the ladder type - but they are uncommon nowadays.
I think jitter as the route-of-all-digital-evil has been over played for a long time. Mayber those who have been able to do valid comparisons know better but I suspect jitter was hijacked by marketing many years ago.
Regards
13doW
The DACs I have, while both having ladder DAC chips, are both OVERsampling (8x) in the traditional sense. They do not use UPsampling or fancy custom logic chips to make the digital filter.
I do not have a NOS DAC but have heard a few really good ones, like the Metrum Hex and Kondo KSL DAC.
I have heard a few of the "complex" DAC setups sound good, like the products from Audio Aero that use the very complex digital filter from Anagram Technologies (So called S.T.A.R.S by them or ATF by Audiomecca) and Analog devices Sigma/Delta DAC chips but with a nice tube output stage (using a cool subminiature tube per channel).
I had an Audio Aero but in the end preferred my Ladder DAC sound as being more analog and present while the Audio Aero was more airy and spacious.
"the path to the objective IS important it seems."
I don't think so. The correct technical definition of the objective is what's important. If the path matters then the requirements are insufficiently understood and/or the path is inadequately controlled.
This is a really common problem with things that interface tightly to our higher senses. Sight and hearing have such high survival values that they are both keen and idiosyncratic. Probably we differ enough that just evaluating our responses to things visual and aural would serve to identify us. Having three complex variables: ears, eyes and brains provides a lot of mapping area. And then you fold in taste...
Electrically we can measure stuff well enough but we aren't too clear about how much what matters. This also holds true for all conducted and radiated noise issues. The problem is with a wide open system, limits are essentially impossible to establish. Compared with almost anything else home audio stuff is way under controlled and specified. This helps foster a mystical notion that magic prevails and the only hope is that some "artisan" tinkering in his garage will find the philosopher's stone that escapes the evil corporate interests.
Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it...
Rick
I more or less agree with your statements, except this one:
"This helps foster a mystical notion that magic prevails and the only hope is that some "artisan" tinkering in his garage will find the philosopher's stone that escapes the evil corporate interests.
"
Once you hear what some of them have produced then you would think twice about this. BTW, many of those so-called "artisan tinkerers" are nothing less than very highly trained but also highly scientific engineers that often came from big industry in the first place. This means they have perspective on what they do and they at least have had a serious rethink on "engineering best practice", which for audio is often nothing of the sort.
"Once you hear what some of them have produced then you would think twice about this."
Were I to believe these systems could sound better than live acoustic performances, then I might believe the hyperbole. That being unlikely, I interpret your remark as an unusually polite version of the classic high-end audiophile snob put down.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Why? With so many shows these days one doesn't need to be able to own expensive gear to hear it and make some conclusions about the value of it. Its not like I own a Living Voice/Kondo rig at home...but I wish I did...and not because of what it costs but what sound it delivers.
"many of those so-called "artisan tinkerers" are nothing less than very highly trained but also highly scientific engineers that often came from big industry in the first place."
Good point.
However clearly that is often not the case and even when it is that does not guarantee superior results.
Rick
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