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In Reply to: RE: I'd file this with Arthur Salvatore's ramblings.......... posted by Sprezza Tura on April 30, 2014 at 10:26:56
to undermine the credibility of the reviewing community than all of the accomodations in the world put together.
Let's not forget that, quite often, audio sales persons influence the decisions of purchasers and accomodation is extended to them as well, not to mention spiffs, but no one is complaining about that.
Follow Ups:
First, Valin claims that the Nordost incident was perpetrated by an associate without his knowledge. For some reason I believe him.
As far as sales people influencing consumers..why is high end audio different than ANY other market..sales people are trained and given incentives to influence customers NO MATTER what they are selling. That is what makes the world go around.
Sales people pay cost in most retail organizations.
your belief, or lack thereof, has no bearing on that. In fact, even if the whole incident was reported speciously, it has no bearing. The damage is done.
Agreed that salespersons are known by customers to be compensated on their suggestions. No need to shout. But reviewer accomodation is out in the open as well. Mr. Dudley, who you referenced in your previous post has devoted entire columns to explaining where every piece of gear that he owns has come from. It's a bit of a tempset in a teapot.
We can agree to disagree on the gravity of accomodations and how they undermine reviewers credibility.
Well, going back to Dudley, ironically, he mentions in his review of the Jadis integrated amp that on his recent trip to Europe, his daughter secured first class Eurostar train accommodations via professional discount. Totally normal, totally ok. Why should the employees of a publication not enjoy industry benefits? Free is one thing. Discounts are another.
I am not disagreeing or agreeing with you. This is not my article. I actually have nothing against accommodations for reviewers. There are persk in every industry.
This is probably the best part of the article:
"So, Step #1 is for you, the reader, to understand that there is this somewhat incestuous relationship between the press and the commercial world of audio, and that opinions coming from the press must always be taken with a grain of salt. Not because reviews are written for the sole purpose of promoting brands or products, but because these relationships do exist, and because value flows from the commercial world into the editorial world, and therefore it is up to the reader to defend themselves with healthy skepticism."
They said:
> The most obvious indication that this exchange of value (discount for influence) is taking place is when the reviewer tells the reader, “I loved this thing so much that I bought the review sample!” I mention this not to suggest that the reviewer is being dishonest at all, because why would anyone part with serious cash of any sort if they didn’t really love something to begin with? This is certainly the most common occurrence of accommodation for the reviewer, and it reveals an enthusiasm so great that they are willing to lay down real money in exchange for the gear. I’d say that’s pretty authentic.>
Since they can buy VIRTUALLY ANY COMPONENT they want at accommodation pricing, it IS authentic.
How does this pricing influence a reviewer?
"How does this pricing influence a reviewer?"
I don't think it does. I would say a good portion of the gear reviewed by TAS and Stereophile are unaffordable, even at 50% off to the reviewers.
Proof is..Neither John Atkinson, Valin, Harley, and a slew of others have not made any significant purchases of gear they reviewed.
I believe all the amps and speakers Mr Atkinson has praised like the Lamm amps and Wilson speaker were either sent back to the factory, (in the Wilson review JA actually said if he were buying his last speaker, the Alexia would be it) or remain in on loan.
Fremer is a big exception and has spent a fortune, even at accommodations.
> Proof is...Neither John Atkinson, Valin, Harley, and a slew of others
> have not made any significant purchases of gear they reviewed.
I've actually purchased a great many components that I have reviewed over
the years. If you wish I can post a list.
By contrast, Robert Harley defended his policy of never buying any audio
products at a public seminar at the 2012 THE Show in Newport Beach, CA,
and has also discussed this policy in an editorial essay in TAS.
I have cut back my spending the past few years, because I have 2 children
studying for their bachelor's degrees and I am paying the tuition fees
out of pocket rather than saddling them with student debt. However, I
have also spent a 5-figure sum on test equipment in 2013 and 2014.
> I believe all the amps and speakers Mr Atkinson has praised like the
> Lamm amps and Wilson speaker were either sent back to the factory, or
> remain in on loan.
This is correct. Almost everything I review is returned once the review
has been published. I write about what products I have on long-term loan
in the June issue, as part of a review of an MBL amplifier.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Actually, I know you have purchased gear, and I used the word "significant" for a purpose. Some components that come to mind are the Benchmark DAC, and many years ago several expensive Levinson products. Funny, those "expensive" Levninsons would be considered downright affordable by the standards of today! I do understand you have skin in the game.By the same token, none of the reference speakers or amplifiers or sources you use in your reviews do you own.
I have no issue with that because you do have a history of investing.
I will go on record as saying again, I much prefer reviewer accommodation over "loans" that stretch years, if not a decade.
Edits: 05/02/14
"I loved this thing so much that I bought the review sample!" is a trite, meaningless and potentially misleading statement. Would the reviewer be so enthusiastic if he had to pay list or even street price for that thing? This statement shouldn't get past the editor.
Uh, really? Statements like this have been in DOZENS of reviews I have read in Sphile. Just worded less arrogantly.
...please explain to me why it matters why a reviewer bought a component at 50% off when he can buy ANY component at 50% off why that matters.
He liked it enough to buy it!
For example, Fremer bought a $100,000 turntable at 50% off when he could have bought any $100,000 turntable at the same price.
So what?
...Fremer likes a $100k TT so much he buys it...for $50K. So what do we really have here? A really good $100K TT or a really good $50K TT. Would he have made that purchase if he had to pay $100K for it like Joe six pack would? I don't care that he bought it for $50K. I do care that the statement "I liked it so much I bought it" implies he liked it so much he bought it for $100K when it was really $50K.
I don't give a rat's behind that reviewers get industry accommodation pricing...everybody pretty much knows this. I really dislike covert statements of value which is what that "I bought it" phrase really is. There are already enough disconnected statements of value in plain sight in the realm of high end audio reviewing
I agree about one thing. I DO NOT think accommodation influences the reviewer to HEAR any differently than if there were no discount.
What it MAY skew is their sense of value. Like when they write about a $5000 DAC or cable being a "bargain".
...Seems that skewed and obfuscated value assessments have become the norm.
Edits: 04/30/14
...true but in perspective.A $5000 component which performs as well as a $10,000 one is a bargain.
"I bought it" says much more than "I liked it".
Edits: 04/30/14
...he bought it because it was the best turntable/arm combo he had ever heard.
If some of them cost say $400,000, then his purchase of this one becomes pretty significant.
It was worth to him whatever he paid - just like it would be to you.
May be you got a 20% discount or paid a 20% premium.
Try to put this in perspective - buying it says a lot more here than merely "I sure liked it and was sorry to see it go."
...how the statement "I bought it" helps someone reading the review make a value conscious purchase decision. You know, where resources aren't unlimited and might have to be allocated. It seems you're missing the point of a review.
Later!
I think I get what you are saying. If the reviewer only has $5,000 let's say for an amplifier the reviewer because he can get accommodation pricing will be more apt to bring in $10,000 amplifiers for reviewer because he can get a $10,000 amp for $5,000.On the one hand it is still an apples to apples comparison because he could audition ten $10k amps and he is still choosing the "best" $10k amplifier to buy - but it does negatively skew the value relationship because "Joe Six Pack" has to spend $10k. Further, the reviewer may be influence into believing the $10k amplifier is much better than all $5,000 amplifiers because after all he is getting a $10,000 amplifier at a "deal" and most people like "deals" and like to feel "superior" in terms of the component value of their system - all of which creates or feeds a price bias.
This is why I have paid whatever the dealer has quoted me. Ie; I don't get a better deal that what a dealers' customer's get so when I say "I bought the review sample - I pay what you pay." Which doesn't mean MSRP but who pays MSRP? Some people are better at haggling than other people. Living in Hong Kong and China has taught me much.
In China those guys are selling wallets. At first the price was 480RMB for a wallet. My friend who is the ultimate haggler got them down to 40RMB. Most tourists might get it for $240 thinking they did good. It works like that for some audio products. They like to have high MSRPs so that when they give you 25% off you feel like you're getting a terrific deal. When in reality the thing was already marked up far higher than other products where you can only get 10% off after negotiating.
Some companies post on their website what the reviewer discount is - Say 40%
Devil's advocate though...
Of course the problem with that is that if I pay full price for a $2000 speaker and I could have had their $2000 speaker for $1200 what does that tell you?That is why I laugh at Stereophile's recommended list because ART Dudley buys $10,000+ Class B rated speakers over $1500 class A rated speakers. Class A is supposedly better than ANYTHING in class B - Art obviously disagrees with that notion now doesn't he? Either that or hi is batcrap crazy to be spending 8 times more money (50% discount or not) on worse sounding loudspeakers/amps etc.
Further, I would pay $2000 full price for a speaker that I like over several ~2000 speakers even if they gave me 50% off or indeed even if I could get them for $300. I'd rather spend the $2000 for something I like than $300 for something I don't.
I do agree with your point but I think we have to give ourselves a bit of credit for preferences. I recently bought the Line Magnetic 219IA at dealer list (they had a 10% sale on it but that sale was for anyone not just reviewers). I probably could have had several $12,000-$13,000 amplifiers for around the same price I paid for the 219IA (and from known brand names making them "safer" buys and netting higher resale values. In spite of that I purchased the 219IA. That's pretty high praise and tells my readers who share a similar sonic aesthetic to me just how much I liked it. 9 months later and I am always happy to fire it up.
Edits: 05/04/14
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