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In Reply to: RE: The Reality of Reviewers posted by John Atkinson on April 13, 2014 at 15:53:06
""Remember: a review is an aesthetic judgment, not truth."
That's pretty much why I don't pay very much attention to most subjective reviews, except as user reports as to how well the product works. I definitely like to see the results of competently done measurements.
I give some attention to subjective reviews of speakers on the presumption that most people seem to like similar characteristics in speakers as per research done at the NRC. Scot Hull mentions two reviewers who write for Stereophile, Art Dudley and Michael Fremer, whose tastes seem so different from mine that I simply ignore their evaluations of the sound quality and look at the measurements. On the other hand, if you (John Atkinson), like a speaker, I probably will, too, and I say the same of a couple of reviewers who do not write for Stereophile, notably Andrew Marshall of Audio Ideas Guide and Doug Schneider of Soundstage. In any case, reviews are for making an audition list, since I want to listen to the speakers to make up my own mind.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Follow Ups:
"I plugged in, pushed the power button in, and it made noise."
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I have no idea why you think I don't audition equipment.
In any case, your scenario of "I plugged in, pushed the power button in, and it made noise" is about what I expect from my system. Maybe you like to listen to your system, but I want to listen to recordings (or sometimes the radio).
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Almost everything is subjective, except turning it on: does it come on and make sound?""I have no idea why you think that I don't audition equipment"
Because you make subjective judgments that assert that everything sounds the same on the basis of extremely limited experiences. Our subjective experiences, and the subjective designs, and subjective construction, and subjective reviews, are all that is.....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 04/20/14
When I listen to recordings I have made using just two microphones - of performers I really enjoy - and for good reason - still getting their work. Despite the severe shortfall between then and at home.
Takes me back to the concert and how it felt.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Nonsense. I have never said "everything sounds the same" and do not agree with it.
"Our subjective experiences, and the subjective designs, and subjective construction, and subjective reviews, are all that is..... "
Do try to make some sense. What is the meaning of "subjective" in that sentence? Subjective as opposed to what? What kind of experience is not subjective?
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
List ten speakers that Art Dudley has owned that you've auditioned and disliked? How about 2?
These 2 factors are sufficient for him to substitute for actual experience:
- a graph at the end of review;
- the name of the reviewer.
At least it's economical, I'll give him that.
I just love it when guys like you are so incensed they cannot refute me and so you just make up some opinions and attribute them to me.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Your history of non-positions ("Let me tell you what I don't think") is well known.
Null results guide your way and you await *proof* that differences other than the obvious ones exist in virtually every component.
As Honda dealers used to say, "this car sells itself".
"I plugged in, pushed the power button in, and it made noise."
Boring would be the ideal, were it possible: "I plugged in, pushed the power button in, and it made beautiful music." Not good for the business of equipment manufactures and dealers, but good for the business of musicians and record labels. The magic should lie in the music, not the process of reproduction.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
:-)!
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Maybe someday, perhaps in my lifetime, engineers will develop metrics that actually correlate to what we hear.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Sorry, but I'm not understanding your point.
For me, listening to music is the ultimate way to keep my mind busy. Complexity and subtlety in music are key elements to my enjoyment. It is the very focus on the music that gives me pleasure and brings out the emotional tie.
Sometimes I just play back music in my head in solitude. I have a game where I play back selections by walking through the alphabet. And that can as easily bring tears to my eyes with some content as hearing it with my ears.
Maybe I'm just weird... :)
If you reach the point where my late wife was (and maybe you already have) you won't need a musical instrument and certainly not a stereo. You will hear everything in your head. Personally, the only time I achieved this was hearing about 30 seconds of the start of a Mahler symphony in a dream. As good as hearing it live, but then I work up. Unfortunately, I didn't figure out who was conducting. :-)
I don't believe we will ever get to the point where we can measure everything that people hear by measuring audio components, since people hear with all their senses and also their mind. An identical pattern of sound waves can be perceived differently depending on context. I believe all careful listeners appreciate this, but unfortunately not all audiophiles are careful listeners.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
... Pat D.
Which, of course, is the ultimate goal of every self-respecting audiophile.
It's BOTH, but can vary in percentages of both for various people.
As formulated by you, it doesn't have much to do with "audiophile".
"The magic should lie in the music, not the process of reproduction."
How did you get a copy of my July column already? :-)
"How did you get a copy of my July column already? :-)"
Channeling. :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Tony, you stop talking crazy now. :)
Exactly.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
> In any case, reviews are for making an audition list, since I want to listen to the speakers to make up my own mind.>
...audio equipment other than speakers - do you listen to those first, too?
Sure. Using equipment is a way of forming a preference for it.
There are also various things I can assess to some degree, such as the tracking ability of a phono cartridge and how well the cartridge/tonearm combo tracks record warps. I can assess the tracking ability of CDPs with the Pierre Verany test CDs.
Phono cartridges often sound different, and it's nice to be able add some capacitance with the Quad 44 preamp. It is very quiet and has a greater overload capacity compared to my old receiver.
I want to make sure an amplifier will drive my speakers and most speakers I would likely acquire in the future. Since I audition speakers using accurate solid state amplifiers, I am not much interested in tube amplifiers, which likely will sound different because of the high output impedance reacting with the impedance of the speakers.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
> ...using accurate solid state amplifiers...>
Since no amplifier is totally accurate, you're saying you prefer solid state distortions and don't care about the sonic differences between them.
It isn't about being totally accurate, just what is audible. You haven't convinced me that those solid state distortions (which are typically way lower than distortions in tube amplifiers) are audible when a good solid state amp is not clipping. You also have not convinced me that the sonic differences between accurate solid state amplifier is audible.
Meanwhile, I get along just fine with my old Quad 606.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
...I have evidence the distortions and differences are audible.
So do 100,000 audiophiles across the world.
Just because you can't hear them doesn't mean they aren't there.
Glad you are able to enjoy your music that way - you don't know what you're missing.
Sometimes ignorance IS bliss.
Never tire of arguing with robots, do you?
Never trust an Atom, they Make Up everything!
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