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In Reply to: RE: TAS Spencer Holbert's Shameful Admission. posted by geezerrocket on April 07, 2014 at 10:48:49
DACs are kind of like computers with their being viewed as obsolete if the chip doesn't process XYZ flavour of the month source. It's so passe if it's not 32 bit 384 DSD capable. And by the very fact that it can't process XYZ means it gets a failing grade - CD players can't get Class A+ due to them not being "up to date."
Most reviewers at the magazines should have some sort of link (Staff page) where you can read the gear that we own. So if he owns the DAC he compared you should be able to track down which DAC he felt got trounced.
Also, it is important to note a couple of things. One, the fact that the older DAC got beat - may only be beaten in his system.
On the other hand a comparison review doesn't really hurt the manufacturers.
MSB is doing just fine in spite of enjoythemusic.com's comparison review of two DACs. If you want the no holds barred comparison you can read Steven Rochlin's review.
Follow Ups:
You can't be serious referencing a 14 year old DAC review as a "no holds barred" comparison.Maybe we could go back and look at pager vs beepers while we are at it.
If you would like to read a few DAC comparison reviews then check out the John Darko DAC index.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
Edits: 04/10/14 04/10/14
The point of the article I linked was not about the DACs in question but about reviewers "NAMING" a product nearly double the price from a "big name" DAC company (MSB) and ripping it to shreds while raving about a DAC with inferior technical numbers as for nearly half the price as being a lot better. The DACs themselves were completely irrelevant to the point I was making or the point the OP raised about the TAS review "not naming" the inferior DAC.And sorry I don't read every review that has ever been written on every audio product. Perhaps there are newer examples where the reviewer basically calls a twice the price DAC an unlistenable pile of poop and the other DAC the bees knees. But the old AN/MSB stands out because I happen to own several AN pieces.
The negative verbiage hardly hurt MSB who now sells DACs at vastly higher price tags. I liked what I heard from them at CES (2010).
Reviewers and review magazines seem to me to walk on eggshells to "protect" the manufacturers.
Steven Rochlin was attacked for being a "rich guy" but when you have deep pockets and you can run a magazine from spare change then you don't have to be a bootlicker. Which is not to say his reviews are always correct or that we will all agree but he doesn't have to worry about advertising.
UHF magazine ripped a few companies way back in the early 1980s those companies no longer send them anything for review. The distributor that carries other lines won't send them any of the other companies to review either. Some companies will only send stuff if they are absolutely sure they will get a rave. For them it is pure advertising (and it only costs them shipping). When you have a reputation of doling out negative reviews then other companies (that pay attention) will avoid the magazine as well.
I was at a dealer in Ontario and felt they did a shabby job of customer service. I wrote about it on the Canadian forum it went back and forth - not too argumentative but I told them what I thought. This dealer is also a distributor. A year or so later after hearing really good sound from both a speaker maker and an amp maker I contacted them a few times for a review as the carry both lines. No reply. So I burned a bridge. Understandably, if I am critical of the dealer publicly then maybe I will be critical of the product.
Even when you ask most reviewers on websites for actual no holds barred opinions you rarely get a straight answer.
Edits: 04/09/14
Rochlin runs a magazine? Lol. News to me. More like a third rate website complete with 80s style graphics.
Show me where Rochlin trashed a product In the last ten years.
Rochlin is a marginal character at best, and a mildly amusing clown.
I do give him credit however for publicly calling the over hyped "DSD revolution" for what it is....bunk.
Distributors and importers did not return your calls? Shocking!!! Cause RGA is a market maker! Your incessant shilling for Audio Note has gotten them into a position of world domination!
--Rochlin runs a magazine? Lol. News to me. More like a third rate website complete with 80s style graphics.--Well the heads of other magazines obviously feel differently
"Enjoy the Music.com is the only site that is partners with respected leading and authoritative print publications including The Absolute Sound, Australian Hi-Fi Magazine, CANADA HiFi, Hi-Fi+, HIFICRITIC, HiFi Media, Hi-Fi World, Sound Practices and VALVE Magazine."
--Rochlin is a marginal character at best, and a mildly amusing clown.--
"Steven R. Rochlin is also, or at one time was, a Member of the Consumer Electronics Association's Citizen Action Network (CEA CAN), the Boston Audio Society (BAS), has a Masters Degree from of the Academy Advancing High Performance Audio & Video (AAHPAV), plus an International Auto Sound Challenge Association (IASCA) certified judge. He was also a Member of the National Academy of Recording Arts & Sciences (Grammy Award organization). His work has been recognized by many authorities within the industry including the President of the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) and is a member to help guide CEA's high-end audio division. Side projects by Steven R. Rochlin include being a recording engineer and solo artist with a recent release of his reference-quality drum/percussion album"
--Show me where Rochlin trashed a product In the last ten years. AND do give him credit however for publicly calling the over hyped "DSD revolution" for what it is....bunk.--If what you say is true then he just gave a negative review to EVERY single product and EVERY single manufacturer that makes a DSD DAC. That means he just called all of them snake oil crooks. Sounds like a negative review and indictment to me.
--Distributors and importers did not return your calls? Shocking!!! Cause RGA is a market maker! Your incessant shilling for Audio Note has gotten them into a position of world domination!--
You know that no one with actual money reads these forums right? The people who buy AN will buy them without any need to read forums. Indeed, 5% of their market is the U.S. So it's the non English as first language world that buys their stuff - largely because unlike the west's instant gratification culture they are prepared to wait 14 months to get their product delivered.
My enthusiastic recommendations of Audio Note over the years are what they are. I have no problem being lumped in as an Audio Note fanboy. I am not going to hide from my view that they make some of the best sounding music reproduction in the audio industry and in my recent Audio Note I Zero amplifier review I put the bias up front.
"Many of us who live on things called budgets view $100,000+ components as crazy toys for the rich. However, over the years I have come to the conclusion that if I came across the bucks to spend such dollars the first company I would look to would be Audio Note UK." http://dagogo.com/audio-note-uk-izero-integrated-amplifier-tube-amplifier-review
I refuse to PRETEND to be objective and that "EVERYTHING" is equally wonderful and equally well designed and uses equal quality parts just to placate the audio business at large. I suppose I have found that Sturgeon's Law that "ninety percent of everything is crap" is largely true.
My most recent purchases have been Line Magnetic Amplifier, Audio Space integrated Amplifier, Line Magnetic CD player and DAC, KEF LS-50 loudspeakers.
There are other things I quite like - the dealer who didn't get back to me has his reasons. I stopped in to look around on the pretext of getting out of the heat. I looked around and asked to hear something (no one was in the store). Not busy. His reply was if I wasn't planning to buy something then why bother. I understand they deal with tire kickers all the time but it's a stereo store - it's not terribly difficult to open CD drawer stick a CD on and push play. Who knows maybe the stereo would be so amazing that it would impress the tire kickers to return and want to hear more and then maybe 6 months later said person comes back and drops $50,000.
I compared that store to Soundhounds who has big couches - you sit and listen and they'll put stuff on (it's usually always on) - even tubes. If you hit Soundhounds at the right time they'll make you a cappuccino - and it will be one of the best you've ever had. And they actually have real music not just 50 tester discs. And they don't blather in your ear why something is great and your stereo sucks.
I can't help if one dealer has a clue and the other doesn't. I can't help it if they want to be petty about it. I extended the olive branch that everyone has a bad day yadda yadda.
Companies don't send reviewers products for the heck of it. We get enough hits to make it worthwhile.
Edits: 04/10/14
What planet are you from? The ONLY folks that think a DAC is obsolete are reviewers..who regurgitate the marketing drivel they are handed by manufactures.The fact that 99.99999999 % of all the digital music anyone will ever own is in PCM, topping out at 192 kHz. The trail of embarrassing proclamations by the industry concerning digital music is lengthy, with Stereophile critics claiming as Far back as 2007 that physical media is dead...LOL!!!...and one jerk of a manufacturer 18 months ago claiming DXD would be the standard going forward. Apparently none of the recording and mastering studios got the memo,,lol
Robert Harley is an outright liar..he proclaimed in his famous editorial that long term loans are "good" for readers because they see what context a reviewer is reviewing in and it creates "consistency"' all with the notion that EVERY review has a complete list of associated equipment. They do not. Barely half off TAS reviews have this sidebar. There are some TAS reviewers that have NEVER revealed their reference systems,
Lastly..you are using a 14 year old DAC review to illustrate comparisons? What a joke. Shocker..Audio Note to boot. Of FAR more import are comparisons of sub $2000 DACs of today a fare more competitive market. A trust fund baby reviewer like Rochlin playing with expensive toys serves who exactly?
Edits: 04/07/14
Read the first postings after ANY review of a DAC that doesn't support DSD.It's always the same: It doesn't do DSD. Strike it off my list!
Who cares if the average music lover has precisely zero recordings on DSD and in the next five years will acquire a similarly impressive no DSD recordings? Who cares if the sum total of DSD recordings worth owning, as one of my writers so succinctly put it, "can be counted on the fingers of one knee?" Who cares if, in the process of trying to shoe-horn DSD into a DAC to tick a box on the spec sheet, it ruins the sound of many budget DACs (which would, incidentally, be better served topping out at 24/96 in the vast majority of cases)? Who cares if the said DAC is hand-built by elven folk and costs as much as a small French village, or is made by the million and costs as much as a tube of Pringles?
It doesn't do DSD. Strike it off my list!
This is the same thing as the video enthusiasts' sudden and disasterous obsession with DVD-Audio and SACD in the early 2000s. They didn't develop an overnight interest in SACD and they sure as hell didn't get it from the magazines, who initially dismissed the inclusion of these 'audiophool' formats as a pointless specification chase. It came from the buyers, pure and simple. Over the course of about a month or two, it became functionally impossible to recommend or sell a DVD-Video player unless it had SACD and DVD-Audio support, and some very good players ended up as landfill as a result.
For my part, I'd like to see recommendations of DACs based on performance, not acronyms. But, if you like a DAC with DSD today, you are an industry-promoting shill; if you like a DAC that only does PCM, you're a luddite.
-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, Lun-duhnn, Ingerland, innit
Edits: 04/09/14
Alan, excellent post! Maybe the post of the year for me concerning reality and perception.
Let's be clear.. there are currently approximately 12,000 SACD titles to choose from, dating back to circa 2000, and DVD-A are STILL being released in deluxe reissue packages AND in new releases. Steve Earl's latest album came with a DVD-A. The Jethro Tull and Yes reissues, and many more, came with DVD-As.
SACD is dead as far as major labels are concerned, but it is the realm of the boutique folks like MoFi, Audio Fidelity, and Analogue Productions.
One thing IMO that will slow the growth of any DSD download market is the requirement of a computer for playback. If and when file players can play DSD files from directly connected storage or via a network, that could be a game changer.
"The fact that 99.99999999 % of all the digital music anyone will ever own is in PCM, topping out at 192 kHz."
The tracks in my personal music library on my computer are 95% PCM and 5% DSD. These are essentially all the digital material that I have purchased over the decades. I guess we listen to different types of music.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I am not sure I understand your post.
I essentially said that 99% of all digital music owned by most people is in PCM..you say you have 95% PCM..how does this 4% differential to what I estimate account for different tastes in music, or anything else.
Whether 95% or 99%, should one base their entire system around an "upgrade" that accounts for 5% of their music library. I think not.
> > I essentially said that 99% of all digital music owned by most people is in PCM..you say you have 95% PCM.
Essentially? What you originally wrote was:
"99.99999999 % of all the digital music anyone will ever own is in PCM"
Tony Lauck qualifies as an "anyone". He has more than 1% DSD music. For someone
who is quick to jump on others' assertions, it seems you went overboard with yours.
There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.
—Leonard Cohen
Actually I agree with you.
What I SHOULD have said is that MOST people's digital collection will be 95% PCM..and not used such an extreme number. It left the door open for hair splitting.
There is little or no extra manufacturing cost associated with adding DSD playback capability to most new DAC designs and there is an increasing availability of demonstration quality recordings appearing as DSD downloads. So it is not surprising that many new DACs oriented to the audiophile marketplace are including DSD capability.
One can question the benefits, but if the costs are low, why bother?
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I don't disagree.
What irks me, and the point I was trying to make, is that is silly to call a DAC "obsolete" or "non competitive" if it does not decode DSD. Far more important is how good does it sound.. the analog output stage, etc.
The audio press has somehow desperately latched on to this non existent "DSD Revolution" causing hysteria and getting to consumers to question their DACs value if it is not stamped "DSD Ready". Again the numbers don't lie as far as available titles.
I don't disagree. Indeed, if I hadn't already been in the market for a new DAC for other reasons, it's unlikely that I would have purchased a new DAC just because to play DSD, especially because I had no DSD files to play and would be facing a "chicken and egg" situation. Nor would I have paid a huge premium to check of the "DSD" box in my new selection. I did feel willing to pay a certain premium to satisfy my curiosity, however.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Understood.
I am ALL for DSD. But I refuse to buy the nonsense that the flood gates will open concerning available media and that DSD will enjoy anything approaching mainstream acceptance.
Where has this come from, or have you made it up?
Accurate number. There are currently less than 250 non classical DSD titles downloads for sale. Don't even bother to bring up ripped SACDs. That is a non starter.
Reality.
There are over 3500 titles not including archives.
....tick tock...still waiting for those links.....
Edits: 04/10/14
Looks to be more like 9000+, but I've not vetted the site.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Huh????? These are SACDs. I was specifically referencing DSD DOWNLOADs.
I MY SELF referenced the fact there were upwards of 12,000 SACD titles in print.
Somewhat confusing. The posts were somewhat cryptic, as fitting the style of some of the posters in the thread.
If it makes you feel better, I'll not be buying a single one of those 9000 SACDs, as they all come with DRM.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
My post: There are currently less than 250 non classical DSD titles downloads for sale. Don't even bother to bring up ripped SACDs. That is a non starter.
FMAKs response: There are over 3500 titles not including archives.
My previous post:. there are currently approximately 12,000 SACD titles to choose from, dating back to circa 2000...
FYI, I own approx. 1000 SACDs.
Please provide a link where I can find 3500 POPULAR music tiles in DSD to download. Please do not include classical. I will be waiting.
Were I to take him at his word (250 DSD titles) and 99.99999999% (10 9's) aren't DSD, then there have to be 250 x 10^10 = 2.5 trillion titles in all.
It looks like the music industry is a lot bigger than I thought. :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Man relax a little. Look I disagree with the long loans (free gear for indefinite periods) but the argument for it is at least plausible. Reviewers may be good writers but not able to afford "the absolute sound" so they need the tools to do the job.
So I get it. Their system should be listed. I don't want to waste time reading reviews from people who own stuff that imo sucks. Not relevant to me or helpful.
As for the example well I go with what I've heard and it was a fitting example of telling it like it is without holding back. And from an online magazine. Trust fund guys don't need to worry about advertising dollars and don't have to tread lightly.
"Look I disagree with the long loans (free gear for indefinite periods) but the argument for it is at least plausible"
Though the argument for not disclosing them to reader does not hold any water.
"Though the argument for not disclosing them to reader does not hold any water."
Agreed.
Hasn't Robert Harley stated in the past that his system consists of long term loans only? He doesn't buy a thing, he just waits for a couple of months until 'the next best thing' comes into his possession and then the cycle repeats itself.
Index.
Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
I posted a link to the review. Did you actually read it? It is clearly stated that the reviewer took the Rotel to a friends house (a fellow audiophile) and in his system and was able to duplicate the earlier results.
Also; I did not see anywhere in the review that the comparison DAC was older- maybe I missed it. I shall re-read it.
I think Robert Harley is just as much at fault as I am lead to believe he is the head honcho in charge over at TAS and as such decides what makes the issue, and what gets round filed.
I seriously doubt that Harry would have signed off on such garbage.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
I admit I didn't read it - I stopped reading TAS many years ago. I'll check it when I get more time.
Okay I skimmed it. I agree there are several comments surrounding the units price that are perplexing. The reviewer says $10k units will beat it but which ones? Which $10k units specifically - all of them? Just because they're $10k. I have heard $10k products that I find less musically enjoyable than $1k-$2k units.
He says that if you're looking at Dacs at $2500 to not overlook the Rotel. So the Rotel is as good as $2500 DACs - again which ones?
But the lesson to learn for other reviewers reading this is to ensure that our future reviews are not so vague and reference at least one known commodity where possible - at least compare it to whatever reference system components you have.
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