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In Reply to: RE: Musical Fidelity V90-DAC rating posted by knewton on March 15, 2014 at 10:57:39
"I certainly know that there is no hard relationship between price and quality, however, the suggestion that any $299 DAC deserves a Class-A..."
Well, you just blew your premise out of the water. Obviously you ARE with the vocal majority here who so strongly believe that price is the only specification that matters that you condemn the poor critter unheard, unmeasured and unknown. Actually I'm very surprised because I know that you're a lot brighter than that.
Focusing on the audio reviews themselves you shall now be subjected to MY opinions as punishment for your transgressions: Reviews are 'infotainment' with the weight on the 'tainment. That sort of works for me as I find many of them amusing and interesting. As far as helping to select gear however they fall quite short unless you can either find a reviewer that is technically competent enough to provide useful information or one that seems to share your tastes, sensitivities and system preferences.
For me one of the latter would be Sam Tellig. I find that Tom seems to have a similar view to mine WRT what sounds good and represents good value so I suffer his travelogs willingly.
I have yet to find a reviewer of value in the former category although I think JA may have the potential but not the fire. That's rather understandable since measuring stuff is really a sideline to his real job and I find it amazing that he manages to do it at all. I also realize that really sorting out the weaknesses and strengths of products beyond the capability or interests of the manufacturers or distys themselves would engender few friends amongst them and that it's really their advertising which allows me to enjoy Stereophile so affordably each month.
It's tricky designing products that strongly couple to human senses, been there, done that. But it's not impossible to learn if you stick to it and there are a lot of good manufacturers around that have done that very thing. It's amazing to me how very discerning our hearing really is but I suppose millennia of survival in the jungles does that for you. I also think that audiophiles dig themselves into holes by becoming over-sensitized. Even though their survival is no longer at stake their joy is and they keep raising the bar to the point of dissatisfaction. No matter how "good" something sounds other stuff equally "good" may still sound differently.
So what are we to do? For some the answer is to spend more money: Yes, you can really buy happiness if you believe that you can. For others the answer is synergy: Eventually trial and error can result in great satisfaction. For others the answer is specifications: Umm DC-infrared, who could ask for more? For others the answer is tweaking: Hanging that rubber monkey with the diamond in it's navel on the wall has locked the soundstage in like a maximum-security prison. For others the answer is competition: My speakers are bigger than your speakers. And so on ad-nausea.
The very crankiness of systems and sensitivity of our perceptions along with the amazingly strong emotional difference that they can make is why I am fascinated with audio. How do you ever REALLY know if if you've 'arrived'? I love listening to my stereo and do so a lot, so I could regard it as a solved problem. Or an instance of the amazing coupling between sounds and human emotions. Or... I have no clue why people like sports, I could care less in general however that's prolly exactly what the bubba on the 50 yard line thinks of my interests. What a dull world it would be if we were all the same...
Regards, Rick
Follow Ups:
Issue with Musical Fidelity though is that its products are very mediocre, very far from the top performers in pretty much any price range. This is based on my first-hand experience with 2 different pieces, and reading various sources.
Regarding Sam Tellig - based on his history (Triangle etc.), I wouldn't pay any attention to anything he feels stimulated enough to proclaim the next best thing.
If we're to speak about relation between price and quality, or lack thereof - there's one area where I would agree with you wholeheartedly, and that's being Rye Whiskeys. Based on my first-hand experience, here are some rankings and corresponding prices:
- High West Rendezvous Rye. Rank: Exceptional, Price: $48.
- Whistlepig. Rank: Mediocre, Price: $60.
- George Dickel Rye. Rank: Very good to Exceptional, Price: $25.
- Ravenswood Rye. Rank: Garbage, Price: $40.
- Russel's Reserve. Rank: OK to good, Price: $40.
"Based on my first-hand experience, here are some rankings and corresponding prices:"
I'd suppose that whiskey is easier to evaluate than stereos. Outside of the glass, environment and companionship, it's just you and the chemicals. Many fewer variables than even a simple home-audio system.
I don't drink that stuff as my pedestrian tastes lean towards beer and wine but they, especially the latter, are iffy propositions if the goal is to have truly consistent products.
Moderate variety seems to be the nature of Nature... *
Rick
* Is this because natural selection needs options?
Moderate variety seems to be the nature of Nature... *
See my moniker. :=)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
..........excuses, excuses, and more excuses!
More self-serving tripe from the "Editor".
Printing filler because the reviewer didn't have anything else to write about in his column this month is a disservice to your subscribers, and ranking the V90-DAC as A+ under the present circumstances is nothing short of dishonest!
Al
> ...excuses, excuses, and more excuses!
No, I offered an explanation in response to a direct question from
another inmate. That you didn't like it or failed to comprehend it
doesn't magically turn what I wrote into an "excuse." Or would you
prefer I _not_ answer questions put to me?
> More self-serving tripe from the "Editor".
You don't like it, please don't read the magazine. I don't have any
problem with that.
> Printing filler because the reviewer didn't have anything else to write
> about in his column this month is a disservice to your subscribers...
No-one said anything about "filler." That is your projection.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Apparently companies are not encouraged to send gear unsolicited but yet MF does it anyway and it seems they do get rewarded handsomely for the risk (pfft) involved.
You really should consider packing it in and turning it over to the young gun while there's still something worth passing on.
--
And Oh, if interested in a reasonable evaluation of this $300 Class A wonder send it to Micheal Lavorgna.
Never trust an Atom, they Make Up everything!
"You should really consider packing it in and turning it over to the young gun while there is still something worth passing on."
+1
But didn't you know that JA can do no wrong, at least according to JA?
He screwed up big-time but doesn't seem to be man enough to admit it. Then, when I complain he suggests that I should just stop reading his magazine. Nice customer service, JA. If I pulled that kind of crap in either of my careers I would have been out on my ass looking for any kind of scut work to keep my head above water instead of being very comfortably retired helping my wife raise horses in Western Colorado!
Cheers,
Al
I think a few assumptions are being made.
1) First the reviewer may indeed think the product deserves the rating is valid. I suppose it would be nice if people could at least hold out the possibility.
Indeed, I a bit surprised at the backlash for a $300 product - on the one hand on this forum people are ripping Stereophile for only reviewing froo froo expensive products - then when they rave about affordable stuff they get ripped.
So umm which is it because they can't do both?
2) The recommended component listings are a bit silly - Some of their reviewers "BUY" more expensive stuff from the class B list pile and not from the class A pile (that is cheaper) - umm Class B is often better than class A. Their reviewer's have established this several times!
Fact is all the stuff is recommended that's why they call it the "recommended components list" The fact they give one thing class A or B or C - is the opinion of very few people.
Seriously I don't know why people get so "live and die" on how gear places on their list.
Most of the stuff sounds so different from each other - just compare some class A speakers - you may love one and be totally indifferent to the other.
Nothing is perfect - they give a class A+ to a cheap DAC - who cares. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater if you disagree on the occasional thing.
I disagree with numerous things (and rant I have) but I still think it's a good magazine, entertaining, and offers excellent value. Heck it would be pretty boring if you agreed with them all the time on everything - why bother to read it if that were the case.
Maybe listen to this VDAC thing first before calling for their heads. I dunno but speaking as a generally cheap bastard it would be real nice to get great sound for $299 - it would leave money for me to put elsewhere.
I also think it is a good magazine. The proof is in the pudding; I keep getting it.
In this case though, I differentiate between a review (if you can even call it that) of an inexpensive product - which is a good thing - and it's warp speed inclusion in A+.
The reviews I read have been mixed; but on balance positive to good (I recall one gushing review).
Right, wrong or indifferent, I guess I just can't reconcile the Wall Wart with A+.
Though I do recall that Pangea Audio came out with a power supply for the DacMagic which significantly improved performance over that with the Wall Wart.
Maybe there is potential here. Let's see what JA finds.
"I guess I just can't reconcile the Wall Wart with A+."
Fortunately you don't have to, the manufacturer has done that for you...
Have you every looked at your power-line with a scope or spectrum? My recommendation is to only do so on an empty stomach. Mine is about the last thing on earth I want anywhere near any signal that I care about. External supplies have the advantage of dumping most of that and even if they do introduce some noise of their own it's a known that can be intelligently addressed in the device.
And, as others have mentioned, you also have the opportunity to buy or build fancier supplies. IMHO one of the worst issues with home audio is having the power supply and it's distortion components in-band, the external DC supply "fixes" that after a fashion.
Regards, Rick
> when I complain he suggests that I should just stop reading his magazine.
> Nice customer service, JA.
The times when the customer was always right ended the day that Web forums
opened for business :-)
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
''The times when the customer was always right ended the day that Web forums
opened for business :-)
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile''
Good formula for eventual terminal decline; do any business course.
> > The times when the customer was always right ended the day that Web forums
> > opened for business :-)
>
> Good formula for eventual terminal decline; do any business course.Guess you missd the smiley :-)
But let's take you seriously. I conjecture that you disagree with my
statement, meaning that you feel I _should_ accommodate every customer.As a Stereophile reader, you have used a lot of bandwidth on this forum
complaining that the Zinio edition is not optimized for reading on a PC.
You first complained about this a few years back and I explained to you
at that time why we felt optimizing the edition for tablets was a better
strategy. Nevertheless, you have popped up repeatedly since then, making
the same point in threads involving Stereophile that are not related to
our Zinio edition.
So, of course you are our customer, but are you right? I suggest not,
not because I don't care about your criticism but because: a) you are
the _only_ reader since we launched the Zinio edition to complain to
me directly about this; b) the increase in subscriptions of our Zinio
edition suggests that our business decision was the correct one; and
c) we must address the consensus of our readers' needs, not that of an
obsessed outlier who can't take no for an answer.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Edits: 03/19/14
Hi John:
As I've mentioned to you before, WFB had the best response for the occasional habitual carper criticizing his magazine: "Cancel your own goddamn subscription."
Succinct and to the point; he was saying it 40 years ago and NR is still going strong today. You, however, tend to be overly indulgent when it comes to chronic complainers. A quality publication such as yours can survive quite nicely without accommodating the lunatic fringe. Why not give it a try?
+1
In this case it's become evident that ego trumps good sense.
Cheers,
Al
I always wonder why certain inmates get their knickers all bunched up over the audio mags. Stereophile is a little more than a dollar an issue if you subscribe from them. Do you go into the grocery store and piss and moan when you buy a dollar product that doesn't meet up to your exacting standards?? Go listen your Monkees albums and chill out.
Some don't find BS entertaining, regardless of cost ... YMMV
Never trust an Atom, they Make Up everything!
Your logical analysis of my statements, and therefore, your conclusions about my thinking, are faulty. My stating that I know that there's no hard relationship between price and performance is not a premise. It's simply an acknowledgement of my acceptance of the axiom that there is not a monotonic relationship between price and performance. However, what Stereophile is conveying by their rating of a $299 DAC goes far beyond that axiom. It would be nothing short of a quantum leap in price to performance, probably the greatest such leap in the history of the audio industry. Is such a leap possible, I suppose so. Is it likely, I think not.Perhaps, if the rating was at the conclusion of a lengthy feature section and review about the V90, it might, just might mind you, have a bit of credibility. Coming, as it does, following literally one and a half sentences describing the sound, the rating appears ludicrous. I can't think of a better word for it. Might the V90 prove to be the greatest product to yet appear on the the digital audio market? It might. I never stated that was an impossibility, but I did suggest that it would be among the greatest of improbabilities.
I find the remainder of you thoughts and observations to be reasonable.
_
Ken Newton
Edits: 03/16/14
The rating systems back them in corners. I am not all that familiar with MF anymore but assuming they sell a few different DACs - if the cheap DAC is class A+ then what happens when they review the M6 DAC at $3000+ (Review linked below)
It would also get an A+ I assume. But when $300 gets you A+ level sound quality then why spend $3000+ to get the same A+ level sound?
I suppose they could just give it A++ and then A+++ and then A+++ (Gold) and A+++ (Diamond). It reminds me of Frasier and Niles at a spa where their card only has clearance for level Silver and they panic that they're not in the in crowd scamming to get gold level clearance.
" ... if the cheap DAC is class A+ then what happens when they review the M6 DAC at $3000+ (Review linked below)"
RGA, they already did. This is an excerpt from my post above:
"Apparently, the $299 V90 is also superior to the Class A Musical Fidelity M6DAC-$2999, and their Class B M1DAC-$799. That's quite an engineering feat."
Ahh - well maybe it's "newer is always better" syndrome.
"Ahh - well maybe it's 'newer is always better' syndrome."
Or could it be "WTF do they expect for $3 (or less) per copy" syndrome?
Like some of the other Inmates posting on this thread I'd also pay double for a better magazine, but it isn't going to happen as long as the present regime remains in charge.
Cheers,
Al
"Perhaps, if the rating was at the conclusion of a lengthy feature section and review about the V90, it might, just might mind you, have a bit of credibility."
Could... Not sure that I've ever seen a case of it though!
"I find the remainder of you thoughts and observations to be reasonable."
Thanks, who could wish for more?
Rick
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