|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
72.86.135.27
I received my April copy of Stereophile in the mail yesterday. It is one of their semi-annual recommended components issues. As has long been typical of Stereophile, pages are spent reviewing products from Musical Fidelty. Perhaps, someone could explain to me why this always seems to be so?On page 23, Sam Tellig reports on the $299 Musical Fidelity V90-DAC. Calling this brief report a review would be far too generous. In it, Mr. Tellig spends all of one and a half sentences actually describing the sound of the V90, then summarily declares it to be, 'Class A'. An Class-A rating seems ludicrous enough for a $299 DAC, but then on page 74, the V90 is upgraded to a 'Class-A+' recommended Digital Processor. The next least expensive DAC in that class is $1995, and the most expensive is $28,000. Quite exhaulted company for a $299 DAC to run with.
No, I've not heard the V90, and I certainly know that there is no hard relationship between price and quality, however, the suggestion that any $299 DAC deserves a Class-A+ rating only works to discredit Stereophile's entire rating system. I wonder whether Mr. Tellig's opinion solely formed this rating determination? Perhaps, those members here who've actually heard the V90 would give their opinion of Stereophile's Class-A+ rating?
_
Ken Newton
Edits: 03/15/14 03/15/14 03/15/14 03/15/14 03/15/14 03/15/14 03/15/14Follow Ups:
Musical Fidelity V90 DAC
Tested at £199
4 out of 5 stars
What Hi*Fi?
P.S.
I think the star rating in What Hi*Fi is comparable within a set of products at similar price. (A $300 5-star product may not be better than a $2000 4-star product.)
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/uploads/reviews/v90-DAC-HiFiCritic-2013.pdf
Hifi choice give it also a very good review saying it matches dacs costing 10 times its price. Also says it measured like the very best. Now this it a different mag altogether.
Is it that people just dnt want to believe that a product for so little money can be good if they have spent thousand on not very good products.
...panties in a bunch, well, now you know.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
It's a question of promoting journalistic integrity, in process if not necessarily in result. We, their customers, are simply expressing some concern in that regard. They are big boys and girls, I'm sure they can take it.
_
Ken Newton
.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
My mistake, then. I was thinking that your comment was intended as snark.
_
Ken Newton
Ken;Do as most of us do......Take Mr. Tellig's reviews with a grain of salt.
Between his Russian wife, his cat Maskim, his age related injuries, his love of convenience over quality and on and on.
He's probably a great old fart to to talk with over a drink or two (this from a middle aged fart that likes a drink).
If you want to read serious reviews on DAC's may I suggest taking a look at the "Darko DAC index".
Again; If your looking to 'Ol Sam for a serious hard hitting review complete with comparably priced competing products, measurements, parts and circuitry layout etc, then you should look elsewhere.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
Edits: 03/30/14
Actually, I'm not so much bothered by Mr. Tellig's persepctive or judgments as an individual reviewer. It seems to me that he should have a reasonably wide latitude within his monthly column. However, someone should have forseen how his very briefly expressed description, followed by an stratospheric rating outside of his column for this $299 DAC might impact the credibility of the magazine. Perhaps, no one there believed that subscribers might care about such things. I rather hope that it was merely an editorial oversight.I suppose, that my primary concern is about the editorial process by which the magazine awarded the V90 an Class-A+ rating, the details of which have yet to be clearly explained by JA. The fact that the product in question is from perennial fair-haired-boy Musical Fidelity induces the distasteful suspicion that favoritism may have contributed to the rating. Of course, I do not expect perfection from the humans at Stereophile. Perhaps, however, a bit more procedural discipline might reasonably be expected?
_
Ken Newton
Edits: 03/20/14 03/20/14 03/20/14 03/20/14
Mr Newton,
Extremely well put..... Such an inclusion brings into question the entire Stereophile Recommended List not only for us, the readers, but also for the audio manufacturers.
actually listened to the V90 DAC?
Has anyone bought one and then returned it?
But my gut feeling with the proviso his stuff at M+A was average-as is the MF gear I've heard over
the last 20 odd years-leopards don't change their spots
You rate Class A+--it's your call
Doesn't have to be mine
Des
When you get a chance, please ask your wife what expression "гнать бодягу" means.
You are right Sam. I doubt any of the critics here have listened to the MF dac. The other problem is that you could criticize virtually any magazine that reviews audio products. At least this dac is reasonably priced.
But I'll take your word for it and buy one. $300 is chump change for a Class A DAC.
Or you cam send me yours :-)
You are otherwise fine with plopping a GPA style rating system on Hi Fi gear?
;D
Why not post about how you are outraged that other more expensive pieces of kit get an A+ when their performance can be rivaled for 300 bucks?
Shouldn't we really be kvetching about how ridiculously over-priced the other A+ rated gear is?
If this rating discredits Stereophile's rating system, would that mean that up until now you bought into such a thing?
Bottom line: Mission accomplished, Stereophile! Here we are, talking about Stereophile!
> "You are otherwise fine with plopping a GPA style rating system on Hi Fi gear?"
That depends. I see no harm in these sort of subjective classifications, so long as certain hard rules intended to promote the integrity of the decision process are applied. Because these ratings are subjective doesn't necessarily condemn product classification to be a haphazard mess. For example, perhaps individual reviewers might be trusted to unilaterally declare some product as Class-C, but maybe it should require at least two reviewers to concur before declaring an Class-B rating, and maybe at least three reviewers should be required to concur before declaring an Class-A rating. This would reduce the probability of human judgement error. Of course, the possibility of subjective error will still exist, but it would be lessened for Class-B, and especially for Class-A. This also should result in much fewer Class-A recommended components than Class-B, and much fewer Class-B recommended components than Class-C. Which is, as it should be.Don't misunderstand me, should three reviewers agree that some product is Class-A, that doesn't determine my opinion should I happen to hear that product. Likewise, if less than three were to agree, therefore denying a Class-A rating, that doesn't mean I won't feel it to deliver a Class-A type performance. What a good rating might do, however, is encourage me to take the time and effort to audition some product. Which is something that isn't practical to do with every worthy product on the market. I think that most of us seek out an audition based on vendor reputation, or on press review/recommendation, or on fellow audiophile review/recommendation.
> "Why not post about how you are outraged that other more expensive pieces of kit get an A+ when their performance can be rivaled for 300 bucks?"
Because that wasn't the issue I was addressing. If you feel it deserving, then I suggest that you open a thread addressing it.> "Shouldn't we really be kvetching about how ridiculously over-priced the other A+ rated gear is?"
Again, that wasn't my issue. However, feel free to open a thread and kvetch.> "If this rating discredits Stereophile's rating system, would that mean that up until now you bought into such a thing?"
It would not necessarily mean that. It also depends on what you mean by, "bought into".> "Bottom line: Mission accomplished, Stereophile! Here we are, talking about Stereophile!"
I very much doubt that they desire this particular sort of talk about them.
_
Ken Newton
Edits: 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14 03/19/14
Is A+ Stereophile's highest rating?
Until the A++ version is released.
-Wendell
paid MF the ultimate left-handed compliment by acknowledging that its $28,000 DAC cannot garner a higher rating than its $300 unit. “Class A+” for the masses! No one can fault Mr. Tellig for being elitist. :)
nt
ListenUp is selling them through Amazon. I'd be tempted if I knew which version it was. Based on Amazon feedback, the original version wasn't that great.
A few weeks ago I bought the Meridian Director DAC ($699) through Amazon. Pretty impressive for a 9oz DAC that I have to Velcro to my shelf so the cables won't pull it off the back. Who needs fancy boxes?
If the MF V-90 is anything like the Meridian, it's a steal at $299.
''A well-priced, well-featured DAC that’s a pleasant listen, but far from the last word in outright entertainment'' - lacks excitement apparently
http://www.whathifi.com/review/v90-dac
Have YOU heard it?
I don't buy MF products blind. Auditions in the past with good equipment at dealers of highly praised components have failed to impress.
I also know quite a bit of the history of the company.
If you haven't heard it, then your comments have no experience with this model to back them up.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/musical-fidelity/v90-dac.htm
Poor 10kHz spectra
nt
I'll have what he's smoking'
Des
I could accept that MF had developed a true Class-A+ DAC, Stereophile's seeming favoritism toward MF products aside. The V90 may sound very good, however, it's not credible to me that it could retail for $299 and legitimately be a Class-A+ DAC. I would love to be wrong about this because it would be a Godsend for most audiophiles, including myself, but experience argues otherwise.
_
Ken Newton
Edits: 03/18/14 03/18/14 03/18/14 03/18/14
Possibly, for $299 Bucks you can get out a great Dac--Ala Schiit
MF-I doubt it
Des
I like Stereophile and JA in particular and have defended the magazine more than once on these pages.
But in this case, I think JA is off the mark ( he is the editor and presumably could have ruled otherwise ).
If Sam really was convinced the MF is as good as indicated, he should have insisted that someone else listen to it because his own reaction is so profound that he doesn't want to perhaps bring the credibility of Stereophile into question by giving it the highest rating.
JA should have insisted the same thing happen for basically the same reasons. I can actually see Sam going overboard ( his writing and musings tends to be rather tabloid than serious journal anyway- I think most find Sam more entertaining than insightful. )
It's not to late to say you might have done things differently JA. Your're better than this sordid mess.
> If Sam really was convinced the MF is as good as indicated, he should have
> insisted that someone else listen to it because his own reaction is so
> profound that he doesn't want to perhaps bring the credibility of
> Stereophile into question by giving it the highest rating.
As I wrote below, I have received a second sample of the V90-DAC and will
be reporting on it in a followup to be published before the next edition
of "Recommended Components" on our October issue. Not sure what else you
would've wanted me to do.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
I think Sam should kick the MF habit for 6 months to regain credibility
Or declare his interest.
Lucky for me the dealer took the Bryston DAC back.
I struggled for a few weeks thinking I spent $30,000* for NOTHING (if the new "A" rated both Stereophile and TAS.. Was only as good as muy old DAc then WTF did I waste all that money on?
Well when the Bryston Phono box BP 1.5 arrived (it had to be made) I cried. It was so beautiful.
So I learned the whole DAC business is pretty iffy anyway.
And there is not a chance in Hell I would spend any money on another DAC again. (I learned my lesson)
My CD sounds great with my little used $250 Adcom DA700 modded with stuffing of antistatic foam per Stereophile guy from EU, Wayyyyy long ago... And using a VAC Standard as a fancy tube buffer. Glorious.*I bought Magnepan 3.6 Bryston 4B-SST², Bryston BP 26 BP 1.5 Rega P5 plus some tother stuff..
Edits: 03/17/14
After the fact, there is not much more that you can do.
However, since the product was not reviewed in any meaningful way and was not tested, it should have been put in Class K.
... various American cars by incredibly credible (pun intended) magazines like Motor Trend, or even more credible organizations like JD Power etc.
Thankfully - the same as with cars - with a bit of first-hand experience, and reading actual users feedback (not some clown's at Stereophile, with questionable reputation to boot), one would know to never bother with Musical Fidelity's run-of-the-mill mediocrity. Much better products exist, in every price range.
this looks much more serious at $299
Phew, I really was glad when I got to: "I certainly know that there is no hard relationship between price and quality"!
Yes, I fully accept that axiom, within reasonable limits. The declaring of a $299 DAC, one that's at or near the bottom of it's maker's own product range, as standing fully in the same class as the absolute very best DACs regardless of price, simply isn't credible to me. That such a unprecedentedly revolutionary (there are no other words for it) jump in value is, coincidently, made by Stereophile's perennial fair haired boy, Musical Fidelity, adds to my incredulity.
_
Ken Newton
Edits: 03/16/14 03/16/14
nt
I quit reading Stereophile's "Recommended Components" section a long time ago. I consider it nothing but filler, or wasted space that Atkinson uses to fool newbies into thinking that they're getting a bonus for their dollars.
I received my issue a couple of days ago and as usual I skipped this feature until I read the thread this AM. Ranking the MF V90-DAC A+ sure looks like an editing mistake to me.
If that's the case it makes me wonder if it either Editor Atkinson or Assistant Editor Mejias was at fault. If it was "Atkinson The Infallible" I'm curious to know his excuse. If it was Mejias, were his thought processes muddled by the anticpation of his upcoming nuptials?*
*I'm being only half-serious here, so please cut me some slack.
If this is not some kind of editing mistake it looks like Antony Michaelson owes somebody ....... (you fill in the blanks).
Cheers,
Al
The rating must be a mistake as it violates Stereophile's own rules for the A+ rating. Sam Tellig's review clearly states that the V-90 DAC is not DSD capable, which is a requirement for the A+ category.
Yes, plus, I believe, it's Stereophile's stated policy that such products must also have been given an in-depth review, which the V90 clearly has not been given. Even so, an merely 'Class-A' rating would still seem ludicrous. If either rating were justified, then Stereophile should be shouting from every hill, and loudly ringing every bell that the V90-DAC is, by far, the single greatest audiophile bargain ever realized. It must render all other DACs, including those from MuFI, extremely poor value.
_
Ken Newton
"I certainly know that there is no hard relationship between price and quality, however, the suggestion that any $299 DAC deserves a Class-A..."
Well, you just blew your premise out of the water. Obviously you ARE with the vocal majority here who so strongly believe that price is the only specification that matters that you condemn the poor critter unheard, unmeasured and unknown. Actually I'm very surprised because I know that you're a lot brighter than that.
Focusing on the audio reviews themselves you shall now be subjected to MY opinions as punishment for your transgressions: Reviews are 'infotainment' with the weight on the 'tainment. That sort of works for me as I find many of them amusing and interesting. As far as helping to select gear however they fall quite short unless you can either find a reviewer that is technically competent enough to provide useful information or one that seems to share your tastes, sensitivities and system preferences.
For me one of the latter would be Sam Tellig. I find that Tom seems to have a similar view to mine WRT what sounds good and represents good value so I suffer his travelogs willingly.
I have yet to find a reviewer of value in the former category although I think JA may have the potential but not the fire. That's rather understandable since measuring stuff is really a sideline to his real job and I find it amazing that he manages to do it at all. I also realize that really sorting out the weaknesses and strengths of products beyond the capability or interests of the manufacturers or distys themselves would engender few friends amongst them and that it's really their advertising which allows me to enjoy Stereophile so affordably each month.
It's tricky designing products that strongly couple to human senses, been there, done that. But it's not impossible to learn if you stick to it and there are a lot of good manufacturers around that have done that very thing. It's amazing to me how very discerning our hearing really is but I suppose millennia of survival in the jungles does that for you. I also think that audiophiles dig themselves into holes by becoming over-sensitized. Even though their survival is no longer at stake their joy is and they keep raising the bar to the point of dissatisfaction. No matter how "good" something sounds other stuff equally "good" may still sound differently.
So what are we to do? For some the answer is to spend more money: Yes, you can really buy happiness if you believe that you can. For others the answer is synergy: Eventually trial and error can result in great satisfaction. For others the answer is specifications: Umm DC-infrared, who could ask for more? For others the answer is tweaking: Hanging that rubber monkey with the diamond in it's navel on the wall has locked the soundstage in like a maximum-security prison. For others the answer is competition: My speakers are bigger than your speakers. And so on ad-nausea.
The very crankiness of systems and sensitivity of our perceptions along with the amazingly strong emotional difference that they can make is why I am fascinated with audio. How do you ever REALLY know if if you've 'arrived'? I love listening to my stereo and do so a lot, so I could regard it as a solved problem. Or an instance of the amazing coupling between sounds and human emotions. Or... I have no clue why people like sports, I could care less in general however that's prolly exactly what the bubba on the 50 yard line thinks of my interests. What a dull world it would be if we were all the same...
Regards, Rick
Issue with Musical Fidelity though is that its products are very mediocre, very far from the top performers in pretty much any price range. This is based on my first-hand experience with 2 different pieces, and reading various sources.
Regarding Sam Tellig - based on his history (Triangle etc.), I wouldn't pay any attention to anything he feels stimulated enough to proclaim the next best thing.
If we're to speak about relation between price and quality, or lack thereof - there's one area where I would agree with you wholeheartedly, and that's being Rye Whiskeys. Based on my first-hand experience, here are some rankings and corresponding prices:
- High West Rendezvous Rye. Rank: Exceptional, Price: $48.
- Whistlepig. Rank: Mediocre, Price: $60.
- George Dickel Rye. Rank: Very good to Exceptional, Price: $25.
- Ravenswood Rye. Rank: Garbage, Price: $40.
- Russel's Reserve. Rank: OK to good, Price: $40.
"Based on my first-hand experience, here are some rankings and corresponding prices:"
I'd suppose that whiskey is easier to evaluate than stereos. Outside of the glass, environment and companionship, it's just you and the chemicals. Many fewer variables than even a simple home-audio system.
I don't drink that stuff as my pedestrian tastes lean towards beer and wine but they, especially the latter, are iffy propositions if the goal is to have truly consistent products.
Moderate variety seems to be the nature of Nature... *
Rick
* Is this because natural selection needs options?
Moderate variety seems to be the nature of Nature... *
See my moniker. :=)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
..........excuses, excuses, and more excuses!
More self-serving tripe from the "Editor".
Printing filler because the reviewer didn't have anything else to write about in his column this month is a disservice to your subscribers, and ranking the V90-DAC as A+ under the present circumstances is nothing short of dishonest!
Al
> ...excuses, excuses, and more excuses!
No, I offered an explanation in response to a direct question from
another inmate. That you didn't like it or failed to comprehend it
doesn't magically turn what I wrote into an "excuse." Or would you
prefer I _not_ answer questions put to me?
> More self-serving tripe from the "Editor".
You don't like it, please don't read the magazine. I don't have any
problem with that.
> Printing filler because the reviewer didn't have anything else to write
> about in his column this month is a disservice to your subscribers...
No-one said anything about "filler." That is your projection.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Apparently companies are not encouraged to send gear unsolicited but yet MF does it anyway and it seems they do get rewarded handsomely for the risk (pfft) involved.
You really should consider packing it in and turning it over to the young gun while there's still something worth passing on.
--
And Oh, if interested in a reasonable evaluation of this $300 Class A wonder send it to Micheal Lavorgna.
Never trust an Atom, they Make Up everything!
"You should really consider packing it in and turning it over to the young gun while there is still something worth passing on."
+1
But didn't you know that JA can do no wrong, at least according to JA?
He screwed up big-time but doesn't seem to be man enough to admit it. Then, when I complain he suggests that I should just stop reading his magazine. Nice customer service, JA. If I pulled that kind of crap in either of my careers I would have been out on my ass looking for any kind of scut work to keep my head above water instead of being very comfortably retired helping my wife raise horses in Western Colorado!
Cheers,
Al
I think a few assumptions are being made.
1) First the reviewer may indeed think the product deserves the rating is valid. I suppose it would be nice if people could at least hold out the possibility.
Indeed, I a bit surprised at the backlash for a $300 product - on the one hand on this forum people are ripping Stereophile for only reviewing froo froo expensive products - then when they rave about affordable stuff they get ripped.
So umm which is it because they can't do both?
2) The recommended component listings are a bit silly - Some of their reviewers "BUY" more expensive stuff from the class B list pile and not from the class A pile (that is cheaper) - umm Class B is often better than class A. Their reviewer's have established this several times!
Fact is all the stuff is recommended that's why they call it the "recommended components list" The fact they give one thing class A or B or C - is the opinion of very few people.
Seriously I don't know why people get so "live and die" on how gear places on their list.
Most of the stuff sounds so different from each other - just compare some class A speakers - you may love one and be totally indifferent to the other.
Nothing is perfect - they give a class A+ to a cheap DAC - who cares. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater if you disagree on the occasional thing.
I disagree with numerous things (and rant I have) but I still think it's a good magazine, entertaining, and offers excellent value. Heck it would be pretty boring if you agreed with them all the time on everything - why bother to read it if that were the case.
Maybe listen to this VDAC thing first before calling for their heads. I dunno but speaking as a generally cheap bastard it would be real nice to get great sound for $299 - it would leave money for me to put elsewhere.
I also think it is a good magazine. The proof is in the pudding; I keep getting it.
In this case though, I differentiate between a review (if you can even call it that) of an inexpensive product - which is a good thing - and it's warp speed inclusion in A+.
The reviews I read have been mixed; but on balance positive to good (I recall one gushing review).
Right, wrong or indifferent, I guess I just can't reconcile the Wall Wart with A+.
Though I do recall that Pangea Audio came out with a power supply for the DacMagic which significantly improved performance over that with the Wall Wart.
Maybe there is potential here. Let's see what JA finds.
"I guess I just can't reconcile the Wall Wart with A+."
Fortunately you don't have to, the manufacturer has done that for you...
Have you every looked at your power-line with a scope or spectrum? My recommendation is to only do so on an empty stomach. Mine is about the last thing on earth I want anywhere near any signal that I care about. External supplies have the advantage of dumping most of that and even if they do introduce some noise of their own it's a known that can be intelligently addressed in the device.
And, as others have mentioned, you also have the opportunity to buy or build fancier supplies. IMHO one of the worst issues with home audio is having the power supply and it's distortion components in-band, the external DC supply "fixes" that after a fashion.
Regards, Rick
> when I complain he suggests that I should just stop reading his magazine.
> Nice customer service, JA.
The times when the customer was always right ended the day that Web forums
opened for business :-)
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
''The times when the customer was always right ended the day that Web forums
opened for business :-)
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile''
Good formula for eventual terminal decline; do any business course.
> > The times when the customer was always right ended the day that Web forums
> > opened for business :-)
>
> Good formula for eventual terminal decline; do any business course.Guess you missd the smiley :-)
But let's take you seriously. I conjecture that you disagree with my
statement, meaning that you feel I _should_ accommodate every customer.As a Stereophile reader, you have used a lot of bandwidth on this forum
complaining that the Zinio edition is not optimized for reading on a PC.
You first complained about this a few years back and I explained to you
at that time why we felt optimizing the edition for tablets was a better
strategy. Nevertheless, you have popped up repeatedly since then, making
the same point in threads involving Stereophile that are not related to
our Zinio edition.
So, of course you are our customer, but are you right? I suggest not,
not because I don't care about your criticism but because: a) you are
the _only_ reader since we launched the Zinio edition to complain to
me directly about this; b) the increase in subscriptions of our Zinio
edition suggests that our business decision was the correct one; and
c) we must address the consensus of our readers' needs, not that of an
obsessed outlier who can't take no for an answer.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Edits: 03/19/14
Hi John:
As I've mentioned to you before, WFB had the best response for the occasional habitual carper criticizing his magazine: "Cancel your own goddamn subscription."
Succinct and to the point; he was saying it 40 years ago and NR is still going strong today. You, however, tend to be overly indulgent when it comes to chronic complainers. A quality publication such as yours can survive quite nicely without accommodating the lunatic fringe. Why not give it a try?
+1
In this case it's become evident that ego trumps good sense.
Cheers,
Al
I always wonder why certain inmates get their knickers all bunched up over the audio mags. Stereophile is a little more than a dollar an issue if you subscribe from them. Do you go into the grocery store and piss and moan when you buy a dollar product that doesn't meet up to your exacting standards?? Go listen your Monkees albums and chill out.
Some don't find BS entertaining, regardless of cost ... YMMV
Never trust an Atom, they Make Up everything!
Your logical analysis of my statements, and therefore, your conclusions about my thinking, are faulty. My stating that I know that there's no hard relationship between price and performance is not a premise. It's simply an acknowledgement of my acceptance of the axiom that there is not a monotonic relationship between price and performance. However, what Stereophile is conveying by their rating of a $299 DAC goes far beyond that axiom. It would be nothing short of a quantum leap in price to performance, probably the greatest such leap in the history of the audio industry. Is such a leap possible, I suppose so. Is it likely, I think not.Perhaps, if the rating was at the conclusion of a lengthy feature section and review about the V90, it might, just might mind you, have a bit of credibility. Coming, as it does, following literally one and a half sentences describing the sound, the rating appears ludicrous. I can't think of a better word for it. Might the V90 prove to be the greatest product to yet appear on the the digital audio market? It might. I never stated that was an impossibility, but I did suggest that it would be among the greatest of improbabilities.
I find the remainder of you thoughts and observations to be reasonable.
_
Ken Newton
Edits: 03/16/14
The rating systems back them in corners. I am not all that familiar with MF anymore but assuming they sell a few different DACs - if the cheap DAC is class A+ then what happens when they review the M6 DAC at $3000+ (Review linked below)
It would also get an A+ I assume. But when $300 gets you A+ level sound quality then why spend $3000+ to get the same A+ level sound?
I suppose they could just give it A++ and then A+++ and then A+++ (Gold) and A+++ (Diamond). It reminds me of Frasier and Niles at a spa where their card only has clearance for level Silver and they panic that they're not in the in crowd scamming to get gold level clearance.
" ... if the cheap DAC is class A+ then what happens when they review the M6 DAC at $3000+ (Review linked below)"
RGA, they already did. This is an excerpt from my post above:
"Apparently, the $299 V90 is also superior to the Class A Musical Fidelity M6DAC-$2999, and their Class B M1DAC-$799. That's quite an engineering feat."
Ahh - well maybe it's "newer is always better" syndrome.
"Ahh - well maybe it's 'newer is always better' syndrome."
Or could it be "WTF do they expect for $3 (or less) per copy" syndrome?
Like some of the other Inmates posting on this thread I'd also pay double for a better magazine, but it isn't going to happen as long as the present regime remains in charge.
Cheers,
Al
"Perhaps, if the rating was at the conclusion of a lengthy feature section and review about the V90, it might, just might mind you, have a bit of credibility."
Could... Not sure that I've ever seen a case of it though!
"I find the remainder of you thoughts and observations to be reasonable."
Thanks, who could wish for more?
Rick
that's what clowns do!
;)
Never trust an Atom, they Make Up everything!
I will go back and look, you raise in interesting point.
Normally, I consider each month's obligatory paean to Mu Fi to be an ad and don't read it, so I will try to catch up.
I know Mu Fi is one if the six Hi Fi companies in existence, so it's not fair of me to ignore their relentless coverage, but I have Mu Fi fatigue. I am so sick of Mu Fi monthly, I have developed an aversion to the name. All that coverage has produced the opposite if the intended effect. I will not consider buying Mu Fi any more...anybody else react that way at this point?
Yes, I feel the much same about Stereophile's incessant Musical Fidelity reviews. While I've nothing particular against Musical Fidelity, such an over focus on one vendor's rather pedestrian products consumes pages which could otherwise be used to review interesting products from less well known vendors. I only read Tellig's report on the $299 V90-DAC after noticing that it was listed among the Class-A+ Digital Processors. Mr. Tellig commits one and a half sentences, count'em, to describing the sound. Stereophile then awards it a Class-A or A+ rating. Something seems very amiss here. I hope this is merely some editorial oversight, and not shameless boosting of Musical Fidelity's financial interests.
_
Ken Newton
Edits: 03/16/14 03/16/14 03/16/14 03/16/14
Descriptions of sound system sounds are awkward at best. Look at all this as light entertainment.
I look at all this as glossy marketing literature.
In the past, magazines that didn't take advertisements had a clear mission to either educate or entertain.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
... either went broke or started taking ads, or both.
The exceptions are vanishingly few.
That being so, Who needs them?
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Actually, quite a few of us do. Not as many as in pre-Internet days, but enough.
Yeh, in the past.
Magazines without ads in niche hobbies suffer one of the following fates
1-the publishers get sick of losing money and fold
2-they charge astronomical subscription prices to subside the lack of ad revenue and either fold from tiny sub numbers, or publish a few issues a year that a few hundred people read.
Folks in this hobby talk a good game, but they want free or dirt cheap content. Ask them to subsidize an ad free review mag and you will hear crickets chirp and not a single wallet will come out of the back pocket.
They would rather pay 10 bucks for Stereophile and whine and complain about the content and how biased the content is.
No way to win for review mags.
Stereophile has a requirement that manufacturers have a certain number of dealers. Therefore, it means they generally have to review the mainstream products. Frankly, for a print magazines that requires people to pay I think it is a good policy because it ensures a certain level of protection for the consumer that it's not a fly by night operation or a company that is too small perhaps to suddenly get hit with major coverage and not be able to meet supply. Further, it protects the magazine from raving about something that goes under weeks after the review. Lastly, there is also a track record to mainstream products.
I reviewed some Line Magnetic gear but this is pretty new to North America and there is no track record. How will it hold up in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years? With major brands they have a track record. In a sense it's "safer" to review and recommend a "mainstream" brand.
Some brands don't change product lines as fast as Musical Fidelity was changing. Can't really review lines that have a few amps they keep around for a decade or two.
Hi Ken - John Atkinson explained why they review a lot of Musical Fidelity further down the page. Do a search on Critics forum and use John Atkinson and Musical Fidelity and you will find it. Basically it is a reasonable explanation and helps both Stereophile and MF.As for class ratings and product of the year ratings - if you read how they come up with it you can laugh at it and then skip the whole thing.
I am sitting here with Stereophile's 2013 Product of the Year loudspeaker and have had them since the middle of December. Great speaker for the money. Class A to me should mean the best of the best. The KEF LS50 is not - it's a great $1500 loudspeaker it does some things exceedingly well. But to suggest that this speaker is better than every speaker in the history of speakers that got class B is ludicrous on every level. But I value scale, dynamics, and excellent treble rendition.
I run side by side comparisons on my second set of speakers $1200 standmoutns designed by Andy Whittle (Rogers Celestion) that have been selling since 2000. Boring box, boring drivers, and while they do some things not as well (bass slam) they're just as good overall. They're not even on the list because no one has heard them. PS the biggest brother won "2013 Product of the Year" in Asia and I've heard them - they utterly trounce the KEF. They trounce everything on Stereophile's list that I have heard and I have heard most of the stuff on their list - granted I only heard some of them at shows - but apparently auditioning something at a show can factor in to them being selected product of the year or given class A (lol).
As for the V-90 DAC - you mean this one - where the reviewer said "lacks excitement" and "far from the last word in outright entertainment" and "not as agile as some"
Which is not to say that the following is any more correct but you'd be better off looking at the Class B stuff Art actually buys than than class A stuff no one wants to own.
Edits: 03/15/14 03/15/14
not convincing
I can't find it either now - but it was not long ago.
I think it is quite reasonable given that print magazines are on deadlines. As I recall Musical Fidelity has a lot of products in line for review or available. If manufacturer XYZ for whatever reason fails to deliver their product (or it fails) or just generally delayed they have Musical Fidelity products available to be bumped up in the queue so the magazine isn't left with a blank space. Most of us don't run print magazines but I think there is a lot of pressure to get things on on time. With E-zines if someone doesn't deliver me something it doesn't matter because we're on our own time frames.
Besides if you're a Musical Fidelity fan and perhaps many Stereophile subscribers are - they'll be quite happy to read another MF review.
I think people expect a little too much for their $3 an issue or whatever. I spend more on toilet paper.
right, pile em high and sell em low. It's their choice though. I'd pay double or more for a decent magazine.
Better known as the designer of the Audio Note AX2?
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Well it's old school meets new school and I was expecting the Stereophile product of the year to utterly trounce the old school. It doesn't. There is more bass and slam - strangely both are cohesive at the listening position. I say strangely because the tweeter is in the center of the woofer on the KEF (a la Tannoy). I can see why they love the KEF, it is really good, but my comparisons illustrate that when done right good sound is pretty timeless. I remember when I first auditioned the AX Two ten years ago it was because a fellow AudioAsylum Inmate (owner of the B&W N805) told me the AX Two sounded much better. Pretty substantial price difference too. I auditioned and I agreed.
Fast forward to 2012/2013 - New fancy designs win product of the year in speakers - the Giya G-1 (which appears to me to be a revamped B&W Model Nautilus with better but similar sound) and the KEF LS-50.
So I was quite amused to see the AN E/Spx HE Alnico win Product of the Year 2013 in Hong Kong/Asia. Sound preferences aside - it illustrates that a speaker based on a 35 year old Snell is preferable to the new hot shots out there.
I would not put much stock in "class A" or "Best of the Year" - as the VDAC illustrates - Stereophile loves it - class A+ but in England they give it rather pedestrian luke-warm commentary. Just as plenty of people will not like whatever is given product of the year.
Stereophile did add the 2 new Stirling Broadcast speakers to their list. I have only heard the 2/6 and it retains much of the old Spendor charm, but sounds more present, detailed and dynamic. The treble is especially different. I own their LS3/5A and, but for its inability to play my 2A3 and 45 tubes, it is my favorite speaker in a small and easily excited every-day living space with anything above 8-9W.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Hi, RGA,
I did a search on John Atkinson and Musical Fidelity, as you suggested. There was a long list of threads, and while I didn't read them all, the only explanation I readily noticed was something about a relationship based on joint recording projects between Mr. Atkinson and Musical Fidelity. If that is the explanation, it strikes me as as wholly improper that such recording projects should impinge on the selection of product overage in the pages of Stereophile. If the publishers of the magazine somehow owe financial consideration to Musical Fidelity for Mr. Atkinson's recording projects, then, at most, it should be provided via reduced rate or free advertising space, and not via magazine product review selection.
_
Ken Newton
> the only explanation I readily noticed was something about a relationship
> based on joint recording projects between Mr. Atkinson and Musical
> Fidelity.Then you didn't look hard enough. :-)
> If that is the explanation, it strikes me as as wholly improper that
> such recording projects should impinge on the selection of product
> coverage in the pages of Stereophile.They didn't.
There were 2 such project: one in 1999, that I financed; one in 2003 that
Musical Fidelity's Antony Michaelson financed that I produced but didn't
receive a fee and for which I paid all my expenses, including the
transatlantic air fare. Because of my involvement on those recording
projects, I recused myself from writing reviews of Musical Fidelity's
products until December 2008 - see footnote 2 at the foot of the linked
page.> If the publishers of the magazine somehow owe financial consideration to
> Musical Fidelity for Mr. Atkinson's recording projects, then, at most,
> it should be provided via reduced rate or free advertising space, and
> not via magazine product review selection.I finance Stereophile's recording projects and lease the finished masters
to the magazine's owner for release as CDs in return for a royalty on
sales. There is no other business connection between the magazine and
my activities as a recording engineer and producer.Regarding the V90-DAC's rating in this issue's "Recommended Components,"
that it doesn't handle DSD does not disqualify it from Class A+, as one
poster wrote in this thread. Neither does its price, nor the fact that it
was not subjected to a full review with measurements. But as I have
written on the Stereophile website, Sam Tellig's rating must be regarded
as provisional until the next listing in October 2014 is compiled. I have
received a second sample of the V90-DAC so I can perform a measurements
followup and listen to it myself.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Edits: 03/16/14
"Then you didn't look hard enough. :-)"I don't doubt that. Perhaps, Mr. Atkinson, you would be kind enough to direct me to the correct explanation? I would appreciate it, thank you.
_
Ken Newton
Edits: 03/16/14
> Perhaps, Mr. Atkinson, you would be kind enough to direct me to the
> correct explanation? I would appreciate it, thank you.\See, for example, the 2011 thread linked below. Basically, while some
companies are still humming and hawing about whether or not to send a
product to Stereophile for review, especially when they know it will be
measured, Antony Michaelson sends review samples without conditions,
and almost by return.
So when a reviewer finds himself without something to write about, as
happened with Sam Tellig's April column, where another product he had
been promised was delayed by a few weeks, there will always be Musical
Fidelity on hand.Yes, Antony Michaelson is gaming the system. And, of course, Sam Tellig
could have accepted that he didn't have anything other than Musical
Fidelity to write about for that issue and go without any income for a month.
I am sure the inmates on this forum would have done that. (Yeah, right!)
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Edits: 03/17/14 03/17/14 03/17/14
Would be a shame if he didn't - because otherwise, it looks just silly (as opposed to silly with a purpose).
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
OK, thanks for the clarification. I re-read the rules regarding A+ ratings, and the V-90 is indeed capable of handling 24/96 LPCM data (but not DSD).
The other DACs in Class A+ notwithstanding, there are numerous DACs in Class A that have received favorable reviews.
Apparently, the $299 V90 is also superior to the Class A Musical Fidelity M6DAC-$2999, and their Class B M1DAC-$799. That's quite an engineering feat.
The paucity of information on performance aside, the Class rating differences in the "review" and in Recommended Components cause one to wonder if this is an error.
And, no, I have not heard the V90.
I used to pay attention to Stereophile ratings; now think it's a waste of space.
Edits: 03/15/14
Strephile has a 'special' relationship with MF?
Knowing the history of the company, and not having liked in audition some of their well reviewed power amps, I am naturally suspicious unless I can be convinced thru audition.
May be one on approval?
Frankly, for that price I would buy something cracking like the Gustard X10 ESS9018 dac with all bells and whistle and sold in China Taobao for half the price that Valab sells it for. The case is in the same style, but better and more elegantly finished than the W4S DAC2 in AL.
I heard one recently and it sounds better than anything I have heard for £300, praobaly £5-600.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: