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In Reply to: RE: The basic problem posted by Tony Lauck on June 05, 2012 at 11:15:06
The majority of young people doing all the downloading are not doing the endless backup you are and I wrote what I did with them in mind. That said, while yes, ALL that you are doing is work, to me it is another reason why the entire thing is rediculous.
You can try to spin it anyway you like, but you have nothing. That is a fact, nothing. The ability to hear a song whenever you like does not mean you actually have anything, as the empty room you occupy attests to. Your reply also indicates you can't grasp that to people like me there is more to it than just listening to the stupid song.
I don't mean any of this to infer anyone is right or wrong, we are free to make the choices we want. I am simply stating I find your choice both incomprehensible and inhuman, and it is not a world I ever wish to be a part of.It's all about the music...
Follow Ups:
"You can try to spin it anyway you like, but you have nothing. That is a fact, nothing."
I have what I have and it is not for you to say what I have or do not have.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
The day you can stand in the room and show me something in your hand you can claim you have something. The only thing you have now is an illusion, and if you bother to look up the definition you'll find that's nothing more than "a false or misleading impression of reality."
While all this is like a real life example of the Matrix, in application you're more like a real life Voldemort. The bits and bytes of your existance are stowed away like horcruxes and you spend your waking hours tending them and moving them so nobody can damage or take them from you, but in the end the real truth is it's nothing, and you have nothing, and you'll leave nothing behind. I am sorry if this bothers you, however it is the truth and I have the right to express my opinion about it.
I have no right to tell you how to live and I am not, but I certainly have the right to tell others I think doing what you do is not a good thing. You do not however have the right to tell me to be quiet. America isn't a fascist state just yet.
"The day you can stand in the room and show me something in your hand you can claim you have something. The only thing you have now is an illusion, and if you bother to look up the definition you'll find that's nothing more than "a false or misleading impression of reality."
It would appear that you subscribe to the philosophy of Materialism. I do not. I suspect that is the root of our different perspectives.
"There are certain defective philosophies which think that the material world is everything. When matter becomes everything, then matter becomes the goal of life. And consequently human existence, human consciousness, subjective portion of the human mind, everything will become like earth and stone. That's why such a philosophy is detrimental to human development." - P.R. Sarkar
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Yes, that's right. How brilliant of you. I have been secretly trying to buy and own the world. That's what I said, and that's what I do.
All these comments make you sanctimonious, self righteous and a nihilist. Do you needs quotes for them too or can you figure it out?
Now go away and plug your brain into your music, you need some down time. I am sure it must be tiring arguing with those beneath you. Have no worries, I won't read or reply to your drivel anymore, I have to go buy things...
Houses burn. Say both yours and Tony's happen to. You will have nothing but Tony still has his "illusions".
While I too like tangible things, I don't care for LP records. As a medium they have little goodness to them. I don't like having to go through a fetishish rigmarole just to listen to music and like every production medium they have severe compromises.
I think you are enamored with the past and I can understand that, but my past includes so many music distribution formats that I am jaded and tired of having to keep migrating, or losing my music. At least with storage as numerical data the latter process can be automated.
Oops, time to go wind up the 78 player...
Rick
That's an inaccurate comparison. It would be more correct to say "Assume you and Tony both had a kid, you had a real kid and Tony had a photo of a kid (and the negative). If your kid dies and Tony's photo is destroyed, he can go make his kid again.
I'd rather have the real kid and risk the loss. Tony has nothing but an illusion.
If I was enamoured with the past... well, what is the past anyway? I mean really, CD's came out almost 30 years ago, isn't that the past? Where do you magically draw the line? I also didn't defend the never ending conga line of media they tried to pull on us, and I never sold my stuff to buy it all over again on the next great "thing." So your snarky "78" commnent was not based on anything I said.
This disagreement wasn't about choice of media anyway, it was about media of any kind versus nothing. Tony (and technology) is a heartbeat away from plugging his "device" into the back of his neck and hearing the music right in his brain. Tell me, is that going to be "real" too? When Tony is in his white, empty room, sitting in his white chair with a cable plugged into his neck will that be called "living" and is that something we want to aspire to? That's life? You better decide, you'll be making that choice very soon. Virtual reality is on the doorstep, and he's about to knock.
...and while he's doing that, you'll laugh at and ridicule me for listening to a real 78 once owned by my grandfather? Something he owned and that had meaning to him....and you tell me my outlook is messed up?
Lets destroy all the art too while we're at it. Why own a Van Gogh that might be lost in a fire when I can have a jpeg on my phone?
You and Tony go have your shiny future for all the good it will do either of you. You keep despising records because they have "little goodness". (whatever the hell that means) I'm done with this thread because you people don't get it. I'm not telling either of you how to live, I'm just questioning your sanity because neither of you see the wall that's coming up fast and hard. You remind me of the types who forced the future on people 60 years ago, when americans went from eating wholesome, home cooked meals to frozen TV Dinners and "snack" foods laced with cancer causing hydrogenated oils. How did that work out? Do you still drink Tang?
To quote Dr Albert Schweitzer - "Man has lost the capacity to foresee and to forestall, he will end by destroying the world."
I recently mastered an album. The original master resides on my computers. I burned a copy of this master on CD-R and gave it to an associate to load into a CD replicating machine. I also converted the file into several formats and uploaded them to a server. Since the ablum was released we have sold some physical copies but more downloads. Two days ago the artist who made the album asked me to send a copy of the WAV files. Rather than burn another "coaster" and ship it all the way to New Zealand, I loaded the WAV files into a shared Dropbox folder and sent an email. Now she has these master WAV files. I think it should be pretty clear that the three of us (plus the paying customers) "have" this music.
This may pass over the head of people who think physically, but the fact is that music resides in the mental sphere. A musical performance is a pattern of information. It is not a physical object. Even more to the point, none of us actually "has" anything material, not even our own body. Our very existence is contingent and transitory. Our very existence is in many respects an illusion. Another way of putting this is that we exist only through God's grace.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Look... There's really no reason to be upset.
DAP put his finger on it: Records aren't the originals.
They are generations away. The best ones I've heard were recorded direct to disk and even those have intervening layers of mothers and stampers and pressings. But they can still sound damn good.
You are clearly offended that I'm not enamored with LP's, but you don't even know why. I'd be happy to tell you all about it if you're interested but it in no way invalidates your decision to focus on them as your prime media. It's my problem, not yours!
My sense of it is that you love LP records. I can understand that, really. The medium that I really loved was reel to reel tape and I would still be using it if I hadn't been jilted so badly by the oxide falling off of most of my tapes. No, they weren't mistreated nor cheap, just some 3M screwup with the binder on that line in that era. On top of that the record industry quit producing pre-recorded tapes. On top of that the motor bearing was going out in my Ampex and the heads were wearing a little. But the real killer was the oxide shed, I just lacked the patience to glue it back in place... Oddly, even though it's been decades when I see the recent ad in the back of Stereophile for a slick looking tape deck I feel a wave of lust. I don't feel that way about digital recorders so maybe it gets imprinted at puberty or something.
As far as owning something tangible, the data itself is of course always stored physically and the HD or Flash stick carriers can be packed around and plugged in the same as records or tapes and I own a permanent license to the data. I don't have anything that has copy protection or DRM and I know Tony eschews that also.
The thrill of shopping and rooting around in bins for music actually has gone full circle. When I was young our record store had several booths where you could play the records (78's and later 45's) that you were interested in to see if you liked them before buying. That was before stereo or microgroove. Later everything was shrink-wrapped and the risk was totally yours so they were a sunk expense before you could hear them. Now when I buy stuff from HD Tracks or Amazon they usually have excerpts that I can listen to of every track prior to buying. Just like the good ol' days, but from the comfort of my easy chair. It has saved me a lot of money as I no longer have to guess whether I'll like it and if I only like a track or two I can just buy them individually. AND, in many cases the recording effectively IS the master tape, a huge advantage of digital. That used to be the holy grail and only the most connected audiophiles managed to get any of the excess safety tapes. And oh man did they sound better than the records! But I wasn't well connected...
But I still buy CD's too. And SACD's. And for that matter I still have all my records, even some 78's which is another favorite format.
I hope this clears things up a little.
Best wishes, Rick
First, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. I cannot fathom some choices, but I am not forcing anything on anyone.
Second, I do not know why everyone is reading into this that I'm some knight on a horse trying to rescue vinyl. I said repeatedly I don't care what medium people prefer, I just can't understand why anyone would want to own nothing.
Third, I don't "love" records. There is more good to say about them than any other method (because yes, I consider the packaging, art etc.. all part of the experience) but choosing them is a lifestyle because they require things from you (work, time and money) to get the most from them, things many people don't want to do. - Reel to reel was higher quality, but as you note, tape simply doesn't hold up.
Fourth, if people are happy owning nothing then be that as it may, but please stop trying to equate some server in a building in Iowa that's storing it as "real", so it's real. IT'S NOT REAL. What if my house burns down.. what if the server facility burns down? What if hackers decide to go after your data instead of attacking some corporation? You people stand a far greater chance of losing it all in a blink than I do.
Fifth, if you think listening to a bad, 20 second clip on amazon is the equivalent to time in a good, actual "real" store then we have nothing to discuss, because we are so far removed there is no common ground. Maybe you were shopping in the wrong stores.
Finally, what everyone keeps completely missing is my post was not about format choice. It was about our choice as a society - Who we are as a people and what we represent. We already have reached a point where we are more fractured than ever. People live in their own micro bubbles now, they have their own "facts", and they don't like other peoples facts because they're all wrong. Go to any restaurant and everyone waiting for a table is staring like a mindless zombie at some device, even the children. Nobody talks, nobody looks at others, our society is about to implode, and none of you get it or see it. When you start removing the human elements from society you are removing the humanity from society. Open your eyes and look, it is happening.
That, if anything, is what I am upset about and what I am talking about. Only it appears so many of you are so far in the woods none of you see the trees anymore. That means it's not going to end pretty, and the cliff I see coming you people are going to drive us over, all the while telling me how OK it is.
I'm sorry. It's not OK. I'm also not going to be a party to it ever. What I can't believe is something as inane as Woody Allens Sleeper is coming to life right before my eyes. It won't be long before you all are telling "people like me" I'm supid for having messy, inconvenient sex when you all use an orgasmatron, in your white houses with your empty rooms and the music cable plugged into the backs of your necks.
What a fool I am.
Ah, but things are improving, the latest orgasmatrons have built in Ethernet and Wi-Fi!
I've never thought of myself as one of 'them', and I'm probably not, but I like to walk and have had to make some real adjustments. Just a few years ago there were often many howdys or even chats involved, now I'm learning to watch for the telltale white cord so that I can save my breath and be prepared to take evasive action if required because those so equipped are totally unaware of their surroundings and other people.
It is an interesting social phase, it's not that they don't enjoy friends and social intercourse, it's that it has become divorced from physicality. Fact is, I'm doing it right now, but at my age I don't do it in public...
However I've tried. A friend gave me an iPod a few years ago for my birthday and I tried using it while walking. Not a pretty picture, apparently I rely on my ears for survival when ambulating and use my eyes to gawk around at things for enjoyment. Losing the hearing part meant that I had to compensate by constantly looking for cars, bicycles, pedestrians, joggers and dogs which meant that it was neither safe nor enjoyable.
But the risk is low sitting here in the couch typing to you.
This whole thing is a logical progression starting with mail then telephones etc. and is still a long way from being terminal. The virtual workplace has been around long enough that we are largely used to it, real-time virtual hanging-out together when in motion is rather new to the masses but as a Ham I did it decades ago. Life is change, flow with it.
Regards, Rick
PS: I don't rely on "the cloud" to always be there nor does anyone I know, and my music and pictures are safe enough. Records are not the goods, they are just the box.
But you're not talking about an original Van Gogh, you're talking about a mass produced copy.Nobody's "laughing" at you or "ridiculing" you, just find it a little hard to relate to your point of view. After all, many of us think it is about the music, not the medium.
Best wishes,
Daniel
Edits: 06/06/12 06/06/12
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