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In Reply to: RE: Will magazines ever improve their measurements in the near future? posted by das@soundstage.com on October 31, 2009 at 12:04:34
I do not think more measurements would be of any use to the average audiophile. Most do not have the skills to interpret correctly the meaning of a graph. It is also noteworthy that nobody actually found a way to characterize the "musical" or "dynamic" quality of a loudspeaker by measurements alone.
This is particularly evident when Stereophile reviews a speaker where the listener likes what he hears while JA gathers and interpret catastrophic engineering flaws of the same speaker.
Floyd Toole (at least when with the NRC) worked on this aspect for quite a long time, and frustrating as it may be (from an R&D perspective), ultimate sound quality still cannot be measured accurately in a repeatable manner.
I remember reading that Toole (I'm not sure if it was with NRC or Harman) ran listening tests of an ugly speaker VS a beautiful one, but it clearly demonstrated that people do listen with their eyes, as the ugly speaker did not sound as good as the other one.
On measurements, a simple impedance sweep can tells a lot if you know how to read the curve, but it's hardly entertaining from a reader's perspective.
I guess it all brews down to the intent of the designer, and what the goal was (or budget, which has a tremendous impact on design), and to the manufacturer's perception of value relative to curves and measurements.
Another contradiction of this hobby is that some very nicely engineered products (i-e any PSB speaker) do not scale high of the audiophile excitement scale.
> I do not think more measurements would be of any use to the average
> audiophile. Most do not have the skills to interpret correctly the
> meaning of a graph. It is also noteworthy that nobody actually found
> a way to characterize the "musical" or "dynamic" quality of a
> loudspeaker by measurements alone.
It is unfortunate that the "I know nothing but I hear everything" set has so overrun the audiophile world. Their level of hostility to knowledge, experiment and measurement seems to be increasing.
> Floyd Toole (at least when with the NRC) worked on this aspect for quite
> a long time, and frustrating as it may be (from an R&D perspective),
> ultimate sound quality still cannot be measured accurately in a
> repeatable manner.
I think that you misrepresent Toole's work. The reports of his work that I have seen shown that listeners generally found that speakers that measure well were preferred to speakers that had serious flaws in measured frequency response or exhibited resonances.
> On measurements, a simple impedance sweep can tells a lot if you know
> how to read the curve, but it's hardly entertaining from a reader's
> perspective.
If I'm going to spend a few thousand dollars on a pair of speakers, I appreciate very much getting solid information to narrow the field to a manageable number of products and show me what I can get at a particular price level.
> Another contradiction of this hobby is that some very nicely engineered
> products (i-e any PSB speaker) do not scale high of the audiophile
> excitement scale.
PSB is still in business selling to rational consumers. Some of those consumers are reading Stereophile to get some factual information to make buying decisions.
Bill
If you're to spend a few thousands dollars on a speaker pair - or car, I hope you do a test drive on top of factual information gathering.
As Toole effectively stated:
The final arbiter of quality, nevertheless, is always the subjective evaluation.
> If you're to spend a few thousands dollars on a speaker pair - or car, I
> hope you do a test drive on top of factual information gathering.I don't think my words indicated that I would not like to listen before purchasing. Here is what I said:
"If I'm going to spend a few thousand dollars on a pair of speakers, I appreciate very much getting solid information to narrow the field to a manageable number of products and show me what I can get at a particular price level."
The audio dealer network in my area is getting pretty thin. Some of those dealers are no longer competent to set up equipment so that it sounds decent. Maybe I can borrow a pair of speakers over the weekend but I can't see managing to have several pairs of speakers on loan on the same Sunday. And some cost effective products are only available via direct sales.
All those factors make it even more important now to have a reliable way to narrow the field. I do want to listen to speakers in my listening room before I purchase. That requires some effort for each purchase candidate so I want to pick out a few good choices and try them out.
Sometimes one or all of the best choices are only available via direct purchase. Maybe there is a 30 day trial with a money back guarantee but I don't want to use that any more than necessary. Maybe I can arrange to listen to a friends speakers before buying something via direct sales. However, sometimes I have to do my research and take a flyer.
Som emonths ago, I bought a pair of Audioengine A5 powered speakers for my home office without hearing them in advance. I didn't want a separate amp and speakers in that situation. There were several plausible choices in my desired price range; none were available for a local audition. My choice worked out well for near field listening.
Bill
Edits: 11/03/09
In my area, dealers are getting desperate. The good old time will not come back, but a new business model is being created and those who adapt will eventually succeed, because survival is not enough.
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