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Hi. I just obtained a Marantz SA-8005 CD player to go with my restored McIntosh MC-2105 amplifier, Primaluna Prologue 3 preamp, and Vienna Acoustics Haydn Grand speakers. The combination sounds really great, with excellent dynamics, good imaging, and a big soundstage. But the highs are a bit too bright and aggressive sounding for my tastes. I was wondering if someone could suggest some cable-fixes for the problem. Right now I am using Mapleshade double helix speaker cables, which really transformed the system by adding clarity, and Anticables Level III interconnects. I was thinking that maybe a different interconnect would make the system sound a bit less aggressive. Also I would be open (though I doubt its efficacy) to swapping out the stock power cord for a not-too-expensive replacement. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Michael Todd
Follow Ups:
Get yourself a Hubble HBL 5362 ac receptacle and the famous for audio Pass and Seymore ac plug for your amp... Also you can use ferrite cores over some of your cable, interconnects... to tame the brightness. The warmest wire that I've tried appropriate for audio is cheap magnet wire, say 16 awg for interconnect. There is better solid wire out there maybe but not warmer. Tweaker
Having been a dealer for Mapleshade/Omega Mikro,I would also suggest playing with the height of your tweeters-in proportion to ear level.This did wonders for the integration of drivers and overall sonic blend.
Tom:cat
Michael, I don't think you've actually specified your budget? That would help members provide relevant suggestions.Cheers,
Vitus SCD025, SIA025, Oppo BPD-103AU, Magico S5's, Taoc ASR racks + SCB-RS50g, Stillpoints Ultra 6's/Mini's/LPI's, Furutech GTX-D(G), Gigawatt PC-3 SE Evo, Jorma Prime pc's + xlr's/Statement sc's/Unity pc, Siltech Classic Anniversary rcas + HDMI
Edits: 09/20/15
I'm a bit late to the game as it appears that your issue might be resolved, but for what's it's worth, I'll chime in with my two cents in light of the fact that my setup is similar to yours. I also have the VA Haydn Grand speakers, a tube preamp, and solid state monoblocks. My CD player is the TEAC Distinction series CD-1000 which has the same DAC as yours. I've also had a brightness issue with the TEAC, although from what I've read, the Marantz is probably slightly warmer.
I have a tube buffer between the player and preamp. That, in and of itself, adds some warmth as well as improvement in soundstaging. Beyond that, in addition to the interconnects, I've adjusted the toe in of the speakers and have them aligned so that the axis crosses about one to two feet behind my head. Even though they are considered warm speakers, with the more clinical and revealing sound of the TEAC, pointed straight to the listening position is too much.
Between the TEAC and tube buffer, I use a Wireworld Elipse 6 and Wireworld Eclipse 7's further down the chain. I've tried the Eclipse 7 on the player, but find that even the modest difference from the series 6 brings out too much aggression, even though the 7 may be the more neutral cable. Thus, the somewhat warmer Eclipse 6 works best. I've also tried both an Audioquest Columbia and a Colorado on the player with the Colorado being too edgy. The Columbia adds warmth, but in exchange for a slight loss of transparency. Just keep in mind that the Haydn Grands, depending on room issues, can be rather fussy about setup.
Hi. Thanks for the suggestions. Yeah I have also found that speaker positioning is key here. In addition to burning in the CD player, moving the speakers out from the wall another foot has helped a lot. The room is only 11' long, and I now have the speakers 2' from the wall and am sitting at the other end of the room. Sounds very good and the imaging is sweet. In terms of cables, I think I am pretty satisfied with the Anticables (Level 3) I am using now, but I'd be open to trying anything <$250 (new or used). I think my next substantial upgrade might be vibration control for the cd player, because I must be getting a lot of vibration in a room of this size. I have had good luck with Mapleshade cables in the past, and might try one of their platforms for the CD player.
Edits: 09/22/15
Cables should add nothing.....just allow. If your system is too bright adjust it by substituting the faulty piece with one you like.
Amen to that.
Bob
I also use the brass cone/maple platform combo for isolation.The platforms yield the best results when placed on a solid rack.Many report back after using the Mapleshade racks,that the platform on top of said rack was where the "magic" began.
I had hoped that I would not hear a difference but after removing them,I knew that all my components needed this treatment.More musically coherent and better integration of the upper frequencies.
I would be curious to hear if others could hear a difference between Michigan maple and Mapleshades or Mapleshade Vs Eden Sound for the brass alloy cones. ??
Tom:cat
Another quick update. Thanks for the helpful and plentiful responses. I put the Marantz CD player through some burn-in, and then moved it to a different wall outlet. Most of the problem with harsh highs has disappeared, even with the Anti-Cables. I am very pleased.
mike555, good you found the issue :) Just shows how important a good AC cable is to controlling and minimizing AC noise but great that you were smart enough to try moving it to a different wall outlet :)edit: Forgot...
Component burnin is also important and even when you first turn a component on (generally at least 20mins for component DC settling before you play music) is important. Speaker placement in a room is also important/critical :)The more revealing/resolving your system is the more important all of these aspects become and as they come together (synergistically) the more musical your system should/will become :)
Edits: 09/22/15 09/22/15 09/22/15 09/22/15
The Anti-cables Level 3 use some gold in their cables,which usually is not bright.Usually moves things a few rows back,in presentation.
You might really like those Mazda 12au7s.They provided a lot of "air" into the soundstage,adding to the 3D dimensionality.
Tom:cat
Thanks for the tip. Can you suggest a good source for the Mazdas?
Last time I visited Upscale Audio/Kevin Deals' websitel,he had them.Something in the $35-45/each range.Hope this helps.
Keep us posted as things progress.
Tom:cat
Forgive me,it has been a while since I last checked on these tubes.$65/each,but well worth it.Order a pair.If you like them as much as I did,then get another pair while they last.If not overly impressed,let us know.I have a friend who purchased my Shuguang generation 8 12ax7s ($50/pr)) and are not in use.Great combo.A "tube guy" friend said they ran 2nd to the Telefunkens in a listening shoot-out.
Tom:cat
A quick update. I am now burning in the Marantz CD player properly using the line-level output. Last night I swapped the Anti-Cable IC from the CD player for a budget IC I had laying around. The problem with the overly aggressive treble mostly cleared up. However, I noticed that the sound on small jazz ensemble recordings was somewhat less dynamic. The percussion seemed to recede into the background. My girlfriend, who also has a very good ear, had the same impression. So I am going to finish the burn-in, then try to find a cable that provides good dynamics without harshness.
Mike Todd
Funny you say that. I recently swapped out the Zu Event silver ICs from my pre to amps and replaced them with generic PVC insulated ICs (from Radio Shack, I think) I had laying around and noticed a HUGE increase in warmth. Unfortunately most of the detail was also gone, and everything sounded mid-fi at best.
Love the Zu Events. Incredibly detailed without being harsh, and not ridiculously priced, either.
My stuff still sounds quite HiFi, with the budget cable, IMO. Just not as dynamic or integrated as before, but still excellent imaging, snappiness, and tonal purity, as well as a huge "presence" (aka soundstage).
GKirkos or others. Would Cardas Golden Presence be a good choice? If not, which older Cardas ICs are you thinking of?
Thanks
I would wait until you have full burn-in. Could take 100+ hours.
I, too, would not change power cords at this time. You can screw it all up.
You may want to consider a new IC if it doesn't settle down. Older Cardas can be had for a steal on the used market and sound, to my ears, the best.
I know you're happy with the tubes, but I've always found new Chinese tubes to be annoyingly bright. Older tubes have always sounded more musical to me. Your vinyl setup may be particularly dark.
It's a trick, to get the digital source to sound similar in tone to the vinyl, so one amp can do it all. I always tune to the CDP since there is less to change the tone.
For use with the Marantz CD player, you might consider a moderate-cost level Neotech NEP-3003 power cord terminated with gold Furutech FI-11M-N1(G) AC plug and gold FI-11-N1(G) IEC connector. Both the cord and the connectors are known for their comparatively warm sonic signatures, and the dual-shielded 13 AWG power cord design is suitable for a digital application.See link:
Edits: 09/16/15
Cardas or Transparent cabling for warmth.
"I just obtained a Marantz SA-8005 CD player". How long ago is "just". If you haven't got 50-100 hours actual playing time on the machine then it is unlikley to be fully broken in and the treble is likely to change further.If so and you buy cables to correct the aggression that you currently hear then they will probably sound dull or over rich later.
It has been renarked elsewhere in the thread that your system overall is not noted for brightness or aggression so I suspect that you just need to give it some time.
Of course harshness and aggression can also be introduced by RF interference and different cables may or may not help on this account. If this is the cause you may need to look to other solutions such as the incoming power supply to the equipment.
Edits: 09/16/15
Thanks for the feedback. The cd player currently has ~50 hours of burn-in time plus 20 hours of usage time.
With respect that means only 20 hours of burn in. Just switching it on won't burn it in. You need to actually play music (or other signal) through it.
Sorry I was not clear. The burn in time was playing music through the cd player into headphones.
Then it is almost certainly still not burn in time for the output to your pre-amp/integrated amp because it is usual practice for the line drivers to be switched out when headphones are connected.To fully burn in the player as you have indicated you would have had to have been playing the headphones and pre-amp/integrated amp simultaneously- if that is actually possible with the design. As I say, usually it is not.
NB: In Marantz designs the headphone ouput is not normally an attenuated line signal as sent to the output sockets but is generated by a separate discrete ampifier.
Edits: 09/16/15 09/16/15
Thank you for clarifying regarding this.
I had a PL2 integrated for a while.I left the outputs alone and focused on the input/driver tubes.The older Shuguang 12ax7s (G8/G9) and the Mazda "Cifte French" military 12au7s were a great combo and never over emphasizing the treble.Upscale Audio:$45/eaJust a thought.
Tom:cat
I hope it's okay to say this in this forum, but my first thought was to try rolling the tubes in the Prima Luna. Could make more of a difference than changing-out wires in different places.Another thought would be to try and isolate the source of the brightness. If you have a different amplifier available, for example, you might try temporarily swapping it for the McIntosh and see what happens.
Edits: 09/16/15 09/16/15 09/16/15
Tube Rolling... changing tubes could definitely fix the issue
Thank you for the reply. I have rolled tubes, replacing the 12ax7s in the Primaluna with Genalex Gold Lions, to no avail. I have also tried different amps in the system, including a Primaluna Prologue 5, without much luck. More critically, there is zero brightness issue in this setup when I use it with vinyl (rega exact --> rega P5 ---> graham slee phono stage). On this basis, I do not think the amp or the preamp is the issue.
I received a generous offer from a fellow in Cleveland to lend me some cables to try out, if I was local to Cleveland (which I am not). If anyone local to Philly (where I am located) could duplicate the offer, I would be willing to give an appropriate deposit or whatever to secure the cable loan.
whoops, just read this post...
Curious, because the Marantz disc players are not known to be bright. I've had three of them, myself.
Do you have the brightness with other high level sources, perhaps the audio from your television pumped though the system?
True. I have a Marantz DV6600 universal player, a bright is not a word I would use to describe it. However, it really is an entry level machine so my experience my not apply.
Dave
If you want a lot of warmth and are willing to give up some clarity and resolution, Monster M1000 or M550 might work.
For a little less warmth, but better resolution, I find that cables with POOCC can work well. I have some Harmonic Technology Cables which are ok.
But the best cable I have heard that offers no trade off in clarity or detail, while presenting accurate timbre is Mogami W2803. Unfortunately, it is difficult to find. I got mine on Amazon, but the seller, Worlds Best Cables, doesn't seem to be selling it anymore. I think it is normally only available in Japan or maybe India.
VH Audio has cords for digital. I got one for my DAC and CDP a few years ago. They are still there. I was in the same place you are. Digital seems to respond more to PC's than my tube amp(s). IC's? I like copper and just got a pair of Impacts from Audio Sensiblity real OCC and very well made. 30 day return but they are keepers. YMMV.
I like it with ICs and speaker cables, but not on PCs. Perhaps its too much of a good thing.
Jack
Not necessarily will any add warmth. If the dielectric is Teflon and depending on the architecture, it can be bright or edgy. I think component synergy with cables is a key element.
I have no direct experience with your electronics but do own VA speakers. By the sounds of it, I am surprised you need a cable fix for warmth as all your components have the reputation for being warm.
Cardas for warmth and MIT for more timbre I reckon.
I'd probably give the CDP a bit of time to settle in. That said, my favorite budget IC that comes across a tad mellow (but highly musical) is the CRL Blue Note. Same goes for the Blue Note speaker cable. As far as power cables on a budget, I've had good luck with a Cullen Crossover....if you consider $175 "budget".
I would suggest leaving the power cords till the end.Most generic PCs do less damage than after-market.Not that they can't improve on things,but some will exagerate things a bit.Get your ducks in order,then audition them.Always go back to the Beldens,just to affirm that you haven't tipped the frequency spectrum in one direction or another.
As for ICs:older purist or siltech,FMS Microwave/blue-also called waveguide(I believe),Magnum,Yankee Audio Baton or possibly an older straightwire.
Single-ended RCA or XLR balanced cable??
Tom:cat
Agreed, power cables lastly. My gut tells me the Anti-Cables may be the culprit. Especially if he has a pair coming from the CDP. Spot on....good IC in that app would be an old PAD Elementa among others.
Could someone recommend an IC I could buy from Music Direct or Amazon and return, without a fee, should it not solve the problem? I am thinking something from Kimber or Audioquest.
Mike
Most cable vendors offer a return policy. You don't have to limit yourself to Amazon. On the cheap, I would try a Signal Cable Analog 2. $59 with a 30 day return priviledge.
That sounds really great. Thanks.
I might get some push back for this but I found myself in the same boat as you years ago and my system never got better until I ditched the stock power cords. I know you stated that you doubt they can make much of a difference but I believe they do, more so than interconnects or speaker cables (IMHO).
As to a suggestion. I'm not sure if these are made anymore but see if you can find some Naim Audio Tibia power cords. They cost from about $25 to $35 for a meter, and are a great sounding starting point to check out power cords. You might have to find them used, if you can find them.
Good luck and let us know how things turn out.
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