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In Reply to: RE: Power cord for Vandersteen 5A's posted by SgreenP@MSN.com on May 09, 2015 at 19:45:19
Yes, I've somewhat familiar with the "Ayre Conditioners" as they been deploying these in their components for about the past 15 years.
I thought they stopped using these things. But as I recall their ads used to state how Ayre strategically would place an Ayre Conditioner at certain offending frequencies throughout much of the spectrum.
I've never researched exactly what they do, but I have to assume they simply suppress those offending frequencies and in so doing, they also suppress the music in those same regions. In other words, they most likely are not real line conditioners but are simply filters to filter out certain frequencies in the audio spectrum.
You say you've tried other highly regarded line conditioners, but they brought nothing to the party.
There's a couple of things to mention about this:
1. Most line conditioners simply are not worth owning. They either do nothing or they induce their own sonic harm.
2. Doubling up any two types of line conditioning always or most always results in worse sound. Not sure why but it's true. I think back about 10 years ago when I owned a $10k preamp that included with it a cheap $5 AC filter inside the chassis right behind the IEC inlet. It was no better sounding than my previous preamps when I had my fabulous Foundation Research line conditioner attached it, as I did and do with all my components. When I plugged the preamp directly into the wall without a line conditioner, its sonics improved slightly. Soon thereafter, I opened the chassis and removed the $5 AC filter and using house wire connected the IEC connector straight to the power supply. Then the preamp came alive with a greater level of musicality. And far better than what the silly $5 AC filter could ever do.
This is no slight against Ayre, but I suspect they hedge their bets that since 99% of all enthusiasts don't partake in line conditioning and especially not in proper or superior line conditioning, their Ayre Conditioners give their products just a little performance edge in this regard.
Of course this leads me to believe that Charles Hanson of Ayre doesn't use superior line conditioning either.
Nevertheless, it is regrettable that mfg'erer never tells the consumer that their little $5 AC filter (or Ayre Conditioners) will defeat the musicality of even superior line conditioners, Maybe they know and maybe they don't know.
But what happens is somebody like yourself comes along and using Ayre's otherwise fine products and when you decide to try even the industry's best line conditioners and get funky results, you have every right to believe the funky sound is coming from the line conditioner and not the cheap $5 AC filter. Why, because when you take the line conditioner back out the funky sound ceases.
But then what happens is that now you, who seems to have a good head on your shoulders, tell others that you've tried numerous types of line conditioners and they didn't work, or didn't work well, ..... well, now the cat's out of the bag that all line conditioners are worthless,. My friend's friend's brother has a really nice well-thought-out playback system and he says line conditioners don't work.
After nearly 20 years, Foundation Research, which has always been at the top of the line conditioner heap, closed their doors a few years ago for this very reason.
As for me I wouldn't own any component that makes a lazy attempt to address proper line conditioning or AC filtering because I know the real benefits of superior line conditioning and these component mfg'ers don't.
As for the Vandersteen's, 12 or 13 years ago, i knew several who owned them and as I recall it was a bit of cabling nightmare with the external crossovers or DSP-like box. As I recall they needed multiple sets of cables, from the amp to that box, from that box to the speaker. But I do like their aesthetic design.
My main reason for my comment about not owning an active speaker is because I already know the very serious harm under-controlled vibrations do to an amplifier when it's sitting in a rack. There's simply no hope for properly controlling an amplifier placed inside a speaker cabinet. That's not even being at the epicenter of an earthquake, that is the earthquake.
And I don't mean to rag on either Ayre or Vandersteen as both generally make very fine cost-effective products that have a certain pride of ownership. But what most don't realize is that their very designs that give them just a tiny edge over competing products are in the end sometimes their products' greatest performance-limiting governors.
So I attempt to stay with the simple products myself that allow me to decide how best to apply superior AC management and superior vibration management.
For example, last year at this time I replaced my 2-componet system that retailed for $17k with a source and amps that retailed for $4k. Both of which easily outperform their predecessors.
But behind these 2 components retailing for $4k, is $14k worth of superior AC mgmt and superior vibration mgmt both of which make all the difference in the world and both of which I call laying a proper foundation.
Follow Ups:
Stehno....an interesting post. We all try to find what we believe is the gratus ad parnassum. I am a violinist and am constantly searching for the very best rosin/string/combination that could bring the finer edge to my sound making from my instrument. What I hear under my ear is different than what the patrons in the 3rd row hear.....we all try the best and live with it until the "best" as we experience it and understand it is bettered and we move on or not to our own satisfaction.
Absolutely. And I apologize for being a bit more forthcoming than you asked. But as you can see there often times is more than meets the naked eye.Moving on to your original question about upgraded cables.
It's good to know that you are skeptical of Vandersteen's take on power cables. Too often we believe that because a mfg'er is an expert at making a certain product, he must be an expert at everything he says or makes. There's plenty of examples but just one example is the mtg'er/designer of my fabulous line conditioners. The power cords are fixed and I'd been told by somebody who knows the designer well that he does not believe in the burn-in process. That's nearly impossible for me to believe that somebody so talented in one area, actually several because also supposedly made fabulous preamps and amps but I've never hear them.
Moving on. do you know for a fact that other IEC connectors won't fit or are you just speculating? To the best of my knowledge nearly every IEC connector on the market should fit the standard-sized IEC inlet at the amp.
I've owned power cables upwards of $2500 and in one recent audio show a distributor asked that I try his $6000 PC. I did, but I didn't have the heart to tell him his $6k PC was no better than my custom $100 DIY power cable that included cryo-treated wiring, and Furutech plug and IEC connector. BTW, supposedly everything Furutech makes is cryo-treated.
In fact, I sold my $2500 PC and kept my $100 DIY PC.
As you know, there are many aftermarket PC's available but in my limited experience, they generally don't make near as much of an improvement as many lead us to believe. But my experience is limited.
There's several ways to go about getting the most out of power cables.
1. Spend $300 - $10,000 per cable.
2. Buy the parts yourself and built your own for $100 - maybe $500.
3. Take whatever cables you currently own and send them to Jena Labs where they will cryo-treat them via the superior full-immersion method at a cost of say $150 - $300 total. But you could be without cables for 2 weeks or more.
In my limited experience, cryo-treating cables is the great equalizer and last year when I hosted an event that included Jena Labs being present, during the Q&A time, I asked Mike Crock a question about this subject matter and he agreed that the normally inferior uncryo-ed cable should sound better than far more expensive cable that was cryo'ed.
That said, there is a 4th option.
4. Purchase some inexpensive but reasonable quality-oriented power cables that are marked as Hospital grade or audio grade for about $40 each. I'd buy one for every component and active speaker. Then send those in to Jena Labs.
Ok, one more.
5. Cryo-parts.com sells some hospital grade power cables that are already cryo-treated for about $35 each. I'm not sure if they use the inferior vapor cryo'ing method or the superior full-immersion cryo'ing method that Jena Labs uses. The difference between the two methods is quite audible.
But I say yes about an aftermarket power cable's potential for improved performance. If for example when upgrading some component and I say it seems to be about a 5% improvement in overall musicality, that subjective 5% implies to me that the improvement is barely audible. For my best power cable upgrade, I'd venture about 6 or 7% at most. Whereas, with superior line conditioning I'd use a number around 30 or 35% or more.
In my experience, $30 - $500 is about as much as I'd be willing to invest in upgrading a single power cable from standard one. Especially when cryo-treating is rather inexpensive.
Edits: 05/09/15
...by the way....I know a couple of pro trumpet players and a sax guy who cryo'd their instruments and swear their instrument is MUCH better...
no doubt that cryo can be an advantage- but, is it permanent?
Yes...I built my own power cords (Furutech (forgot the model, but top of the line carbon fiber/chrome beautiful) plugs/Accrolink wire). I used to own a company that made cable and resonance control devices. By the way, in that endeavor, I discovered that soldering ruins the good sound of cables. Ours were crimped solidly. ..and too, I discovered that the plugs make a huge difference in the cable...not so much the wire itself) (Too much work for too little reward). I agree that the amps in the speakers (and crossover as well) be freed from the vibrations therein and spiked to the floor..even in another room...however, that's what I have.
Edits: 05/10/15
Interesting. What was your company name?
Why not buy the parts and built your own power cables?
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