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In Reply to: RE: No review posted by ahendler on July 01, 2014 at 21:32:17
Winston was not abused; he was criticized for posting a review that went beyond enthusiasm and had all the trappings of ad copy.
If you are using that as an excuse for not posting your own opinions, then perhaps you deserve abuse for being lazy or a wimp or a tease. No one should be criticized here for giving their opinion unless it crosses into unreasonable hyperbole. Additionally, I don't think it's appropriate for someone to post here that they have knowledge but we don't deserve to share it.
Nice to know that you like the cords and they make better sound. Perhaps you could elaborate just a little and we would find it informative, which would definitely serve a purpose. I'm happy you don't claim they perform miracles.
Peace,
Tom E
Follow Ups:
No one deserves abuse - for any reason. Ever.
Looking forward to the review from ahender, and to my cord arriving. Someone mentioned the things interacting with each other. Not sure if they meant the add on BD parts or the PCs. If it is the PCs, that is a little worrisome.
I don't think the PCs interact particularly. I use on all components with no problem. But with black discus you need to experiment - some places work, some don't.
I don't think the PCs interact particularly.
I don't want to be awkward but, for whatever reason, my finding is that two or more MSA cables in close proximity can degrade the sound compared to one lead on its own. At least in my system, curing the problem was simply a matter of experimenting with how they were dressed, i.e. ensuring that they lie some distance apart.
Perhaps I'm wrong but I assumed the issue had a similar cause to the case where, as the MSA web site puts it, "If you put more [kegs] on, you get worse sound, less balanced." I had already tried extra kegs on what was then known as a PP+ and found that the sound became shrill.
Inmates concerned that they have perhaps ordered too many MSA PCs need not, in my view, worry. I'd suggest adding leads one at a time over a day or two so you can hear whether the extra lead makes things better or worse. If the latter, do not despair, just experiment a bit. You'll get there.
I now have an MSA device on the PC for every device in my audio system except for a self-powered USB-to-I2S board. That had been using a lead made with three kegs I'd pulled from an experimental PP++ but I converted it to battery power so I could release the kegs to make a PC for my TV. The effect on that is a sharper image and increased colour saturation. (Well worth the modest cost - I can almost read the makers name on Tim Howard's shirt.)
In passing, though my setup is not as elaborate as many power-conditioning-wise, I do have two dedicated "clean" outlets, one for digital and one for analogue. Both are fitted with pro-audio mains filters and are, by chance, close to the main board and thus (presumably) of lower impedance than a typical UK ring main. MSA PCs nevertheless make a very marked difference to SQ.
If the above amounts to a mini-review, so be it.
"Geez, you really jumped down the guy's throat. Maybe he's a shill, maybe not, but I don't think he deserves abuse." Tom you said this in response to a poast of Elizabeth in the original review of the power cord. but now if I decide to not post a review for reasons you think I might be using then I deserve abuse. Winston doesn't deserve to be abused even if he is a shill but I should be abused for not posting a review.
By the way a component can improve the sound if it performs better then the component it is replacing. If the original component adds distortion to the signal but the new component doesn't then distortion has been removed. Don't take this as abuse, just pointing out some facts.
I will post a review tomorrow. Hope you learn something.
Alan
Power cords don't add distortion.
As fate would have it, power cords add quite a lot of distortion, actually noise and distortion, some power cords more than others, but they all do. One of the primary culprits is the distortion produced by the self induced magnetic field produced by current flowing through the cord as it interacts with the AC signal."It looks like the self destruct bottom just blew itself up." On board the B-52 in Dr. Strangelove
Edits: 07/04/14
Sorry, Geoff. They don't add distortion. Electrical theory 101.
Spoken like a true music major.
that retort made me chuckle.
No offense to the OP (other poster) intended.
axolotl
"One of the primary culprits is the distortion produced by the self induced magnetic field produced by current flowing through the cord as it interacts with the AC signal."
Oh please professor, tells us more about this wondrous weirdness... How do it distort?
Just knowing what you are thinking of when you write "AC signal" would help.
Acolyte Rick
Good reaction. Why does the magnetism hurt the sound, grasshopper? For the same reason that the (magnetic) breaker panel door hurts the sound. For the same reason audio transformers hurt the sound. Ain't electricity mysterious?
"Good reaction."
Thanks.
"For the same reason that the (magnetic) breaker panel door hurts the sound."
What? You don't care for the Phasy sound of Eddy and the Currents?
Actually I didn't know they did but then I think my breakers are just thermal. If these things are very serious issues that speaks poorly of the PSRR is in home audio... Which, sadly, wouldn't be exactly news...
Happy fourth! Remember ears prefer beers to bangs.
Rick
You wrote,
"What? You don't care for the Phasy sound of Eddy and the Currents?
Actually I didn't know they did but then I think my breakers are just thermal. If these things are very serious issues that speaks poorly of the PSRR is in home audio... Which, sadly, wouldn't be exactly news..."
You're breakers are thermal? Are the wires coming into the breakers and leaving them thermal, too? ;-)
"Are the wires coming into the breakers and leaving them thermal, too? ;-)"
Sure, I just loosen the screws a little...
Seriously, I've never paid a bit of attention to the loop areas, or their positioning and such, it's just however the electrician(s) happened to do it. If there happens to be enough slack I could do an optimizing pass for the stereo circuit.
Have you actually experienced positive results by doing such things? I don't mean in theory, I mean in terms of readily hearable differences.
Tnx, Rick
You wrote,"Have you actually experienced positive results by doing such things? I don't mean in theory, I mean in terms of readily hearable differences."
Gosh, I always thought you were the theory guy and I was the application guy all these years. Do you mean to sit there and tell me you never wrapped your transformer in mu metal or opened the door of your breaker panel box, or demagnetized your CDs and interconnects, you know, just to see the effect of magnetism on the sound? Color me shocked. Of course, I've experienced positive results by doing such things. Now get up off that lounge chair and do such things!
Edits: 07/05/14 07/05/14
"opened the door of your breaker panel box"
LOL! Of COURSE I've never opened the panel door' How could I? It's never been closed... I store my ladders propped in front of it and couldn't reach the breakers through them if the door was shut!
Maybe there's a larger, manly principle involved here: sloppy garages make for better sound.
So let me ask you one: Have you tried just taking off the front panel? That should open up the magnetic circuit for several of the current loops. Just askin', not that I would ever suggest doing something so risqué...
If there is enough slack maybe I could reroute the grounds of the stereo circuit nearer the input bus also. Hmmm
"I always thought you were the theory guy". I is! I know more about eddy currents than the McKenzie R. does...
Rick
Did I ever take off the door on the breaker panel? What do you think? You think these hands have been soaking in Ivory Liquid?
Edits: 07/05/14
Not the door, have you ever tried removing the front panel itself which would take the door along with it? Along with all the steel between the breakers.
Just curious, I'm not advocating such a thing of course...
Rick
I have a non magnetic frame and non magnetic door. There are a number of, uh, treatments inside around the romex and breakers as well, you know, unmentionables.
Edits: 07/05/14
"I have a non magnetic frame and non magnetic door. There are a number of, uh, treatments inside around the romex and breakers as well, you know, unmentionables."
COOL!....
Aluminum? Is the main box still steel? Custom? Stock? Home-brew? Enough questions? Maybe just one more: Of what ilk was the main noticable sonic difference?
Tnx,
R.
Sorry, but that's classified.
Less distortion. :-)
"Sorry, but that's classified."
Bummer, you reverted.
Oh well...
Rick
Loose lips sink ships. Old audiophile axiom.
I wrote "PERHAPS you deserve abuse" and I meant it in a sort of jocular way to goad you into producing your own review. Sorry you took offense. Wow, I guess you really paid attention to that previous thread. I was not trying to abuse Winston, and it's true that I don't think he deserved it. I found some others' posts to be unnecessarily cruel and crude, but that's an issue I'd rather not pursue.
Yes, of course a better device might avoid distortion caused by a lesser device it replaces, but no device can REMOVE distortion. No magic crystals, no purified copper wires, no number of kegs (whatever those are), can improve a signal. That seemed to be what Winston was claiming, and the snake oil approach is what set me off. I did not dispute his overall favorable impression of the cords, but only the exaggerated properties he assigned to them. It would be quite foolish, as many others have needlessly pointed out here and elsewhere, to argue against a product one has not personally auditioned.
Looking forward to your review, so long as it doesn't state that these cords make awful recordings sound wonderful. Even mad scientists cannot find a way to do that, especially with just a power cord. I won't argue that it can't make a system sound better, but no one should claim that it can fix something that's already broken.
Peace,
Tom E
not even knowing what the hell you are talking about....not very wise in my opinion, but then that's only my opinion.
The power coming down the AC line is suppose to be either 50 or 60 cycles. It is not suppose to have RF and noise riding along with it. We know, if fact, that there is noise on the AC line. All noise is distortion...distortion is a form of noise....either measured or noticed with our ears. This is the whole purpose of line conditioning....to remove the noise and distortion. The MSA power cords are power line conditioners built into a power cord. What people are describing is a lowering of noise (distortion). If you do not filter it then it gets amplified and radiated by the components down stream....and....into your ears.
So, a power line conditioner or in this case a power cord with a line conditioner built in can lower noise and DISTORTION. This is not snake oil talk.
Granted there can be noise on the AC line. I would agree that, if not removed, the noise can be amplified and will degrade the sound. I disagree that all noise is distortion, except in the very broadest sense of being an unwanted addition to the original signal. The two are measured and quantified separately. Noise is certainly not wanted, but that doesn't make it distortion. I maintain that there is not a device that will reduce distortion present in a musical signal without affecting the signal.
If a filter removes noise from the AC line, it probably will make your system sound better, or at least different. Conversely, I have heard a power filter, quite expensive and bulky, suck the air and life out of a system, and I didn't care a whit whether it removed noise or not. I am not aware that there is any type of filter that will make a bad recording sound good, which is what the original review claimed. If a recording sounds bad simply because of noise on the line, you've got bigger problems than power cords.
I recognize that you're pretty far ahead of me in technical knowledge, and I appreciate your insightful contribution to the discussion. I restate that I believe power cords will change the sound of most components, but they cannot make miraculous improvements to bad recordings. That's the snake oil part.
Peace,
Tom E
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