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in cables. I am familiar with electrical activity in humans such as in the heart or brain and how abnormal "conduction" can lead to changes in how electrical signals are propagated. But, that is with living cells. How does the passage of electrons over time through a cable change how future electrons will be conducted ? Not looking for flames ( short circuits anyone !), I am just trying to understand a claim made by many throughout the audio community and that is that the sound the cables contribute to a system's sound can change over time due to changes in the cable. Thanks Norm
Follow Ups:
Mechanical settling is beneficial to cables as well. More so with some designs than others. Wires don't like to be moved around, especially Cardas and solid cores types. Let them stay in place, motionless for 3 days.
I've never seen any measurements on this, but perhaps someday.
I wonder if part of the problem with 'testing' cables is the fact they often have to be moved around to make the swap?
When I compare cables, the initial swap is just for 'instant' immediate differences...I usually live with the cable for a few days playing whatever discs I have in heavy rotation(in the 5-disc changer) before drawing conclusions. My changer has two analog outputs, easy to just switch between them with the flip of a toggle switch(to select line input)
when the worshippers try to play on a pseudo-scientific field, the supporting literature is provided by audio dealer websites. No financial agenda there.
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
Saving the world has nothing to do with this,,The world does not care..
See Link
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
I haven't seen that mentioned when I look to buy 14 or 18 gauge zip cord. Norm
This was an interesting article, but it failed to address how the presence or absence of the loose electrons in the insulator might affect the flow of electrons in the copper, i.e. the actual signal conveyed by the wire. To convince me I would have to see a theory that describes how the electron flow changes over time and/or measurements to that effect.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
This was an interesting article, but it failed to address how the presence or absence of the loose electrons in the insulator might affect the flow of electrons in the copper, i.e. the actual signal conveyed by the wire. To convince me I would have to see a theory that describes how the electron flow changes over time and/or measurements to that effect.
------------------------------------------
-Electrons don't flow, current flows through the electrons.
-What we have are 2 conduction bands....one in the wire and the other in the insulator.
-Eletricity will of course flow via the path of least resistance...ie the conduction band in the wire.
-The 'Loose' electrons ie the electrons in the conduction band will drift...see YouTube Video in the link.
-Until the conduction band in the insulator is saturated you can expect the signal to be blurred, incoherent and slow.
As far as Scientific proof ie White Papers, PhD thesis etc. sorry I can't supply that information.
But you have my "Theory" and as such, theories do not require proof.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
A theory plus a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. This theory predicts nothing about how audio signals traverse a cable from one system component to the next. Perhaps someone has an additional theory that can be combined to reach a useful conclusion, but I've not seen one.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I know its not totally complete, but hey, what do you expect for a dollar.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Exactly. Good post. I'm betting there is no proof of a changed electron flow through a cable. And if there is, does it happen at 80 hours and not at 70 as I mentioned in a previous post? Of course not.
are describing a capacitor. My recollection of electronics is 40-50 Yrs old, but isn't the valence shell one where electrons can be shed and gained easily? Wouldn't the state of the atom and the number of electrons in the valence shell return to the baseline as soon as current no longer flows through the conductor. It almost sounds as though the insulator is the prime component in this description. I guess I don't fully understand this argument, but thanks for the information. Norm
Dielectric Absorption
Text taken from Empirical Audio website (See link below):
-snip-
Dielectric absorption is also referred to as "soakage" or "voltage retention". After a capacitor is charged, it retains part of the charge, even after being discharged and even if the conductors have been shorted together. Cables, like capacitors behave as if they have an additional series of RC networks in parallel with the primary capacitance, and it is these small distributed capacitances that retain charge due to the high series resistance. To measure dielectric absorption, the capacitor or cable is charged to some voltage for one minute, and is then shorted for two seconds. After a one minute delay, the recovered voltage is read using a very high impedance voltmeter. In some instances, a significant voltage "rebounds" from the capacitor or cable. Dielectric absorption is calculated by dividing the recovered voltage by the charging voltage, and is expressed in percent. Teflon, polystyrene, and polypropylene dielectrics will yield the lowest dielectric absorption, while PVC and vinyl will yield the highest. To insure that the audio waveform is not altered by secondary "rebounds" of charge and the high-frequency "fine inner detail" is preserved, it is prudent to use dielectric materials that have low dielectric absorption in audio interconnects and speaker cables.
-snip-
Hi Duster,
I have read the links and other posts that you have posted in this thread. You examination has made me able to see how it could be possible for the dielectric to have a sonic effect. Note that I have been skeptical, but I did not think it was appropriate to voice that on this forum.
Thanks! Now it is time to experiment! It make sense that the best insulators also make the best material for capacitors.
Dave
choice of one minute of charging and 2 seconds of shorting are arbitrary or not. But after a voltage source is removed, shouldn't there be no more EMF ( elctro motive force or voltage ) stored in the cable, wouldn't they be referring to current instead? I am probably rusty on this stuff, but it does seem to suggest that a better insulator would be important in cable construction and could be part of the break in phenomenon, but if that is what they are describing does it necessarily have anything to do with so called cable break in. I am simply trying to understand this since it often seems that higher cost cables often are advertised as having break in as an attribute of their "quality" and perhaps a justification of higher costs. Thanks for the link. Norm
"I am simply trying to understand this since it often seems that higher cost cables often are advertised as having break in as an attribute of their "quality" and perhaps a justification of higher costs."
I not sure if you either can't hear break in or your background will not allow you to. However, the presumptuous claim you're making is preposterous.
That claim is not presumptuous, but maybe a little cynical. It does seem to be de rigueur of cable companies to list break-in time for their cables though - the more exotic (read expensive), the more time required. Let's say the company suggests 80 hours: what is happening at 80 hours that isn't happening at 70 hours? Is the cable 7/8 of the way there at 70 hours or does it all happen right at 80 hours. If the company can't answer this, and merely says "trust your ears", walk away.
And then there are the cable cookers. If we want our cables broken in, doesn't it seem logical to have the cable cooker broken in as well? Do we want a signal messing with our cables that isn't true? Some may scoff at this, but keep in mind we all have our limits to what we believe. Some don't believe in cable break-in at all; some do, but consider it subtle; some believe in maybe 10 hours of break-in, but not 80; some think 80, but not 400 and on and on.
We come into these debates with preconceived notions. How much do we "believe" before we start being suspicious. Where's that point?
"That claim is not presumptuous, but maybe a little cynical."
"Little cynical", what's that? 'Preposterous' is more on point.
Try to stay on topic. What does break-in have to do with the perception of quality?
"We come into these debates with preconceived notions."
Judging from your reply, in your case an agenda.
"How much do we "believe" before we start being suspicious. Where's that point?"
Agendas aside, what other point could there possibly be?
> > > > How much do we "believe" before we start being suspicious. Where's that point?You can always show your distrust of high end cable manufacturers with your wallet. Don't believe the claims, don't buy the product.
For every product segment there will be people who do not buy the claims of products within the segment. Wire-is-wire people are not likely to purchase after-market cables, Bits-R-Bits people are not likely to purchase expensive Dacs and indeed probably won't purchase a Dac period.
Forums like this rarely IF EVER change peoples minds, no matter how many posts and how many points and counter points are made.
You can always look at it from the perspective as being glad you don't hear a difference which enables you to spend your money on other things like music.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Edits: 05/31/12
One manufacture of cables and wire of all sorts and is one of the oldest cable manufactures here in this country,,Commented to me a strange virus of beliefs have cropped up and hyped the audio community,,making exotic claims that are not true,,Prying on the audio customer with high priced bling connectors...As a recording engineer with years of expierence older than some members here,,,I must caution the moderaters here to allow the truth to be known,,The cables and connectors are not brokin in before any recording sessions,, John Ergle one of the most respected audio recording engineers before his death commented on how bad the problem of over hype has become in the industry,,
It really does not matter at this point.
The seeds have been planted and the fruit has grown. We have passed the point of no return and perception drives sales. The best way for a consumer to protect themselves is to become educated on what concerns them the most. But even with education on the matter people will still be prone to purchase what they like or want and for any reason they choose. Note that any one of these reasons may defy logic or reason, but still it is the consumers prerogative to make the purchase.
If you feel that your knowledge and/or experience leads you to purchase standard non-Audiophile wire and you do not percieve a difference in sound between hr 1 and month 1, fine. Enjoy...
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
I forgot to address the orignal topic in my post, the matter of break-in. I do believe it is impossible to perceive the differences in sound that may occur over a playing period of 100 hours that may occur over days or weeks, that would result from break-in of a cable. That is my opinion and I hope it is not unreasonable to state it.
> > > > That is my opinion and I hope it is not unreasonable to state it.
I don't think its unreasonable.
I think it would be unreasonable to assume that everyone can or can't hear a difference.
Some people feel no pain relief from Tylenol, others feel pain relief every time. Still the manufacturers of Tylenol itself does not know "exactly" how Tylenol relieves pain.
Mechanism of Action
Analgesia
Although the exact site and mechanism of analgesic action is not clearly defined, acetaminophen appears to produce analgesia by elevation of the pain threshold.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
I once didn't appreciate the effect a speaker cable was having until I *stopped* using it! LOLIt was a long time back, my cable at the time was one of those 100s of fine strands per conductor designs. I swapped it for a braided Kimber model (can't remember which, but was entry level).
Anyway I remember not being all that impressed with the Kimber and switched back to my normal cable ... only in the days following I noticed that transient attack (or speed, or whatever) wasn't what it was with the Kimber leading to a less exciting or softened presentation.
Things like that you remember ... and make you reflect on own experience when faced with claims of the shortcoming of aural memory. :)
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
Edits: 06/03/12
*
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This will surely put you to sleep...:-)
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
As you can see from the responses below, the simple answer to your question is no. No one can explain it to you, just as no one can tell you why a wine would need to breathe.
If you prefer Mungo Jerry's scientific approach, maybe someone at Propeller Head Plaza can assist you. The problem with the scientific approach is that many think if it can't be measured that it can't be heard, as opposed to those that hear differences say that if it can't be measured, you are measuring the wrong thing.
That's too simplistic. You're regurgitating that old objective vs subjective nonsense. The OP wants to know what's happening at break-in. Shouldn't science explain this?
These types of posts are not in the spirit of the Cable Asylum.
Please refrain from such postings, or suffer the consequences.
In this post specifically, you are denigrating a poster, and demanding scientific/objective replies and content.
See:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.mpl?audio/cables.html
Moderator Cable Asylum,
Jon Risch
...you are the one regurgitating the same old science routine.
"Shouldn't science be able to explain this?"
You can hope so, but I doubt it. You have to remember that science is ever evolving. Maybe one day science will be able to answer this. We can measure things today that we could not measure 50 years ago, so one day science may have an explaination just for you.
Until then, perhaps some folks should recognize the difference between the Cable forum and the Propeller Head Plaza forum. Do a study and explain to me why scientific minds cannot respect boundaries. It seems almost every thread you get wrapped up in within the Cable Forum eventually gets tossed, and rightfully so. Maybe that is your goal, to get every thread about sonic differences in cables thrown out. Mungo Jerry, saving the world.....LOL!!!
You're taking this a little too personally for some reason.
Is it possible that nothing is happening because break-in doesn't exist? Are we entirely sure that this phenomenon actually takes place? It's been mentioned so many times by cable vendors, that we seem to accept it without question. Maybe the audio community has been duped!
I would be willing to bet that if you asked the world's leading EE's, they would say it doesn't exist. If you asked the average audiophile, he would vouch for its existence.
"I would be willing to bet that if you asked the world's leading EE's, they would say it doesn't exist. If you asked the average audiophile, he would vouch for its existence."
So what exactly is the point of that statement? That you are willing to hedge bets on imaginary scenerio's? That what we hear can't be measured by our current limited scientific capabilities? Or is it all in the audiophile's head? Nothing can be proven on either side, so what exactly is the point of your posts, other than to have threads dismissed?
My point is simply that we cannot just blindly look to science. Science has been proven wrong many times in the last 10,000 years. Science is still evolving, as is the human mind. Maybe, in 732 years science will be able to accurately measure what humans can hear. In the mean time, what is gained by hedging bets on assumptions with limited knowledge.
On a personal note, yes you will have to forgive me. I have been suffering with a health affliction for the last 25 years that our modern medical science has not been able to understand, cure, or even properly identify yet. So forgive me if I don't find the state of the scientific field to be finalized. I see it as ever evolving, just as we humans are.
I agree on all counts.
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Break-in is necessary for any of my hi end products, and we have found it important with cables.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=12&pagestring=Cable
http://www.soundstage.com/yfiles/yfiles200005.htm
Ignore anything by Cardas. He's in the market to sell you techno-babble, and also ignore the Soundstage article which also quotes salesmen. The author of that article (who I know personally) is not qualified in this area. You should look for published data in scientific minded journals; not material from cable salesmen.
These types of posts are not in the spirit of the Cable Asylum.
Please refrain from such postings, or suffer the consequences.
In this post specifically, you are bad-mouthing folks without any evidence or corroboration.
Jon Risch
*
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auto-igno* Just saw that. Can you actually do that here, or was it just a passive-agressive insult?
nt
Duster, I'm not trolling; I'm dead serious. I'm trying to steer the OP in a more scientific direction. What's wrong with that? He'll learn absolutely nothing from the cable vendors.
.
Edits: 05/31/12 05/31/12
See link:
Well, I read through the link provided by Duster containing a vehement argument about electrical wall plates. In that argument the proponents for improved wall plates actually appear to denigrate people who purchase expesnive wooden knobs. And I noted that while there seems to be little tolerance hereabouts for disagreeing with cable pro's, tweaks maybe dont receive the same protection.
It leads me to wonder what camp I'm really in if any. I happen to believe that the benefits of 'improved cables' are way overblown. I dont begrudge people spending huge amounts of money on cables if they want to, but sometimes I find the hype posted on forum threads a bit offensive.
Likewise I find it quite difficult to imagine (and I certainly haven't been able to hear or identify any) wall plates that, again, make a staggering difference in the sound of a system, or any difference for that matter. I cant hear it myself.
In contrast however I can see where putting a wooden knob on a preamp, may have some very small effect on the sound, through altering or deadening vibration. Soundstage? No, that seems too farfetched. Anyway I tried it. As much as i would hope to hear something I didn't. But they (Mpingo) sure do look good on my Modwright swlp 9.0se. For $29 a little more realistic than $500 too.
Not denigrating anyone, but just stating my own personal disbelief.
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