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my impression of HE2003

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I spent most of the day yesterday listening to demos with my fingers in my ears. Kudos to Jon Ver Halen and Jeffrey J for having one of the few rooms run at sane volume levels.
Most of the exhibitors need to get a clue. At the levels they were playing they are causing enough hearing damage to disqualify themselves as being capable of judging the quality of the sound of their own gear or anyone else's.

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Re: my impression of HE2003 - SteveBrown 12:37:18 06/11/03 (1)
The hig-end volume crank reminds me of my days as a photographer. The rule of thumb was,if you can't take a decent picture - make them bigger, they're more impressive that way. If they're still not impressive, frame them!
- frame them... - Bryon 13:17:22 06/11/03 (0)
  but you need to make sure the mat board is black. Another way to 'improve' a crappy picture is to up the contrast by one or two grades. I mainly worked in black and white so these "improvements" might not have the same effect for colour images.
  Bryon
guilty as charged - tcain 10:29:45 06/10/03 (3)
I play stuf at realistic levels like what the original may have been. Soft for cool jazz and for most classical. Definately I use volume as a digestive aid when playing rave techo and rock. I'm not trying to listen to a system's strengths weaknesses but rather attempting to re-create an artists intent. TC
- If the format fits - KGW 13:00:54 06/10/03 (1)
  I can't imagine Motorhead as background music.
  
  KGW
  
  My DIY Page
  - Motorhead.... that's in the easy listening category right (nt) - Gaspode 15:32:31 06/10/03 (0)
    .
- Re: guilty as charged - Doc B. 11:26:30 06/10/03 (0)
  I wasn't picking on you Terry. I agree that if you play techno you gotta feel it, I've certainly done the same when playing some of Mikey P.'s records at VSAC. You certainly weren't blasting the level of that excellent high fidelity CD that I brought. For those of you who missed it, it was a lesson on how to speak hip. Geets Romo is one loose wig, dig?
Re: Loudness - KGW 10:18:01 06/10/03 (0)
After hearing my old band, a guy offered to record us in his home studio. I paid him a visit and he played everything really loud. He had tons of gear but apparantly had no clue that he was making it sound like loud boomy crap. To make a long story short, we didn't record there.

KGW

My DIY Page
It's especially bad.. - Mike B 10:11:41 06/10/03 (0)
when they crank up the volume in the small rooms and the sound relects everywhere. Doesn't seem like anythings changed since the '02 show.
It still shocks me how much mediocre expensive equipment is out there.
Re: my impression of HE2003 - calsaint 07:11:06 06/10/03 (0)
thanks Doc.
I live in SF and could not muster the desire to attend (although on the off chance that I'd bump into you I nearly changed my mind).

Sounds like I didn't miss much; my normal listening level is quite low, so the crowds and noise would have been a real drag.
steve
High vloume levels: a possible explanation: - Garland 06:36:09 06/10/03 (2)
I'm guessing that these levels are just a result of trying to overcome ambient noise in the room. We all love to listen in the middle of the night when it is so quiet and our systems sound so good. I love to hear Sarah Vaughn breathing between phrases and Issac Stern holding his bow inches above the stings ready to dive in! You just can't hear these things in a room with a dozen people adding their own noise to the experience.
G.
- Re: High vloume levels: a possible explanation: - DRCope 09:15:52 06/10/03 (1)
  I think you're being entirely too kind. ;-)
  Most exhibitors wouldn't recognize the ability to musically communicate if it bit them in the output transformer.
  The kindest thing I can think is that people think they'll "get" what they're missing at low volume by turning it up. I got's some bad news: If it doesn't come across at low to moderate volume, it ain't there to begin with, and then you sure as hell don't want to turn it up.
  Keep your ears and your mind open.
  - Re: High vloume levels: a possible explanation: - Garland 09:39:29 06/10/03 (0)
    I think you must be right. I forget about these dealers we're talking about...! It's been a while!
    G.
Re: my impression of HE2003 - Skier 05:39:34 06/10/03 (8)
I agree about the volume levels. Strangely enough, I think I was more impressed by some of the lower priced rooms, especially Rega and Creek. It seems to me that it takes more engineering skill to design a great sounding lower cost unit than to design a speaker cable that is $12,000 or an amplifier that is $80,000. Maybe I am not "sophisticated" enough, but some of the lower cost equipment sounded fantastic to my ears. It's too bad there were no DIY exhibitors.
PS-Why the high volume levels? Does it hide flaws in the system?
- Reasonable insanity - Ian L 07:20:07 06/10/03 (7)
  A friend of mine who runs an audio retail store believes that because turning a stereo up really high is something that is only tolerable with low distortion systems, if you have a system with low distortion you should listen to it at really high levels .
  There is a sort of logic there `,;^)
  - Re: Reasonable insanity - Doc B. 08:21:43 06/10/03 (6)
    Yes, I heard that exact type of pitch being made by some of the manufacturer's reps. But one could hear many forms of distortion in many systems no matter how loud or how quiet. That's just the nature of audio.
    Aside from hurting my ears, the thing that was bugging me was that some exhibitors didn't seem to be able to discern that their systems sounded more realistic at lower levels anyway.
    Certainly the same kind of thing happens at all shows, including VSAC. I guess we all key on a certain type of customer, who's taste matches ours, and set the level accordingly.
    I will generally ask a customer what level they prefer when I do an audition here at the Chateau, but at a show where you have several people in the room at once, this is not necessarily possible. Regardless, I think we all have an obligation not to damage our customer's hearing.
    Maybe I'll just wear earplugs next time...
    - Re: Reasonable insanity - Tony Glynn 12:08:46 06/10/03 (3)
      I see nothing has changed at these Shows.
      It must be remembered that these Big Shows are not about music-they are about equipment and giving audio writers something to write about until--the next Show !
      Thus the old Show rule applies. If your equipment sucks-- play it loud to disguise the fact this over priced stuff can't do the job.Dazzle 'em with fireworks etc.
      At VSAC, music seems to predominate and us 1 to 3 watt lovers tend to listen to music.
      Maybe these "Power Shows" have some merit. They can drive the music lover toward us and away from the Dark Side.
      Anyone want to bet that one of these behemouth, juggernaut ear splitting systems will make it to the "Best in Show"category???
      It all gets too Freudian. i.e. mine is bigger and louder than yours!
      On to Silverdale!!!!
      Tony
      - Re: Reasonable insanity - John Swenson 12:30:49 06/10/03 (2)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Reasonable insanity posted by Tony Glynn on June 10, 2003 at 12:08:46:
        
        This reminds me of my first Sterophile show (MANY years ago), most rooms were playing very loud boomy music, except for the Vandersteen room. Richard himself was playing DJ at a nice little system with his just released 2Cis, all ARC electronics and a turntable (I don't remember what it was), he played vey good music at decent levels, I kept on coming back to that room to let my ears heal before venturing out again, it was like a breath of fresh air. (guess which speakers I wound up buying)
        One dealer had this $150k system put together in a large room with lots of people packing in, it sounded all right but didn't play MUSIC, at one point they demonstrated their little "cheap" system (only $10k), THAT sounded MUCH better, it was real music.
        One dealer DID have a megabuck system that sounded really good (all ARC electronics again and Thiel CS5.0 speakers), but that was the only one, all the other places that sounded good were relatively speaking inexpensive systems.
        What I came away from that was, its much harder to make a mega-buck system sound good than a cheap system. I guess thats why I eventually wound up here in the land of "as simple as possible" audio.
        John S.
        
        Bass baby - badman 19:10:12 06/10/03 (1)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Reasonable insanity posted by John Swenson on June 10, 2003 at 12:30:49:
        
        The inundation of ones skull with pounding bass at these shows gets really tiring. The rooms typically have strong bass reinforcement, and the exhibitors don't do a damn thing to naturalize the response. Not a one of my favorite rooms at HE2002 had a sub. The best (which surprisingly was actually chosen as best) I heard was the Joseph Audio room- which had bass, but was played at reasonable levels. Blue Circle was excellent- using bookshelves, again, at reasonable levels. Kimber Kable- likewise excellent, also bookshelves at reasonable levels. Triangle and Meadowlark both showed mid-size floorstanders played at reasonable levels- also good rooms. I avoided the HT demos.
        The Pipedreams sounded terrible, as did the big Dynadio- Evidences, IIRC. Not overplayed when I went in, just the systems weren't communicative.
        If and when I can afford a room, it'll have tubes and bookshelves. Just seems to be better that way at a show, as they're not so problematic in the bass, and peoples ears actually can listen to music and relax vs. the big overplayed systems.
        
        How about ProAcs ? - Ian L. 18:53:15 06/11/03 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Bass baby posted by badman on June 10, 2003 at 19:10:12:
        
        None of my gear could drive them as far as the front door but I still think they're a great speaker. So I'm curious, How are they played at the shows ?
    - Get the big ones... - Kevin P 10:18:06 06/10/03 (1)
      This is what I like to wear when mowing the lawn.
      http://www.lindensafety.com/details.cfm?id=125
      - Re: Get the big ones... - Doc B. 12:01:32 06/10/03 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Get the big ones... posted by Kevin P on June 10, 2003 at 10:18:06:
        
        As a shooter I have all sorts of hearing protection around here. 29 dB muffs are great, I have two pair. Only Howard Leight does better at 31 dB. Actually even 19 or 20dB of suppression is usually enough to do the job, short of standing next to a guy firing high power rifle. These days I use electronic muffs with mics that let anything below about 84 dB thru, and give 24dB of suppression above that level.
        But ear plugs fit the pocket a lot easier, are a lot cheaper, and good ones can offer just about as much protection as muffs. I always take a pair with me when traveling, and keep them in my pocket for when we are doing any speaker testing. Wish I had taken them to the show...but fingers are pretty good too, in a pinch.
Re: my impression of HE2003 - JeromeS 23:55:38 06/09/03 (0)
I'll second the loud volume, especially at the ones that were for home theater. I was unfortunate enough to be in front row of the left loudspeaker in the Martin Logan/Faroudja room and it was easily 110db's especially for the last demo using 'Vertical Limit'. Guess they had use all the watts out of the Parasound JC-1's they were using for the front 3 speakers.
Hi Doc, what's volume level they're playing? I just - Tanker 19:23:18 06/09/03 (0)
curious what volume level you're considering causing hearing damage. Thanks

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