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Hi AllThe Dixie Bottleheads met Sunday , June 1, 2003 at Jack Roberts place in Clyde, N.C.
Rick Henthorne of _Lefty_ line stage fame dubbed this meeting, Double Horn Fun.
There were a number of Bottleheads and goodly bit of Equipment of there.
Among them were; Phil Seig, Jim Dowdy, Randy Carter, Steve Killian, Jim Griffin, Cody Ryan, Ken L, Rick Henthorne, Steve Blair and several other folks in addition to the woman's auxiliary headed up by Debra Henthorne.
We listened to several of what we have taken to calling the “surfer” (Azura??) horns with different drivers. I particularly wanted to know what the other Bottleheads thought about the Fostex FE206E drivers that I have been so pleased with. Those comments will be at the bottom of this post.
We listened to a couple of preamps. As usual our preference was for the “Lefty” line stage of Rick Henthorne which we used for most of our listening. Most of the listening was also done through Jack Roberts 300B amp.
Steve Killian brought a breadboarded S-5 push-pull tube amp, putting out about 8 watts. The amp had a beefed up power supply, and Solen PS caps, Kiwamie and Caddock Resistors, Angela tin foil caps in the signal path, and quite a list of hot rodded parts. It’s hard to believe the kind of sound someone like Steve can get for about $300 in parts.
Randy Carter brought the chassis he is currently working on for his latest 845 amp incarnation. You will rarely see this quality of construction outside of a production facility. Of course, it does help that much of Randy’s training and work is in Industrial Design and Randy has access to a machine shop. Regardless of the factors, it made me quite envious to look at his work. Josh Stippich, watch out.
Jim Griffin brought what I believe was a prototype of his Needles Line Array kit. I don’t know if it was a prototype or the first production model or what, but it looked killer and had a polished, finished production look. Among other things it used the ESG3 ribbon tweeter. Jim had obviously done a good bit of work to ensure that the sound was smooth and well integrated, including the sub he was using with the array.
Also on hand were a pair of beta Dana 8” full range drivers being brought ought by Don Carron and crew. The Bottleheads are going to be putting some beta pairs through their paces for Don. Alas, I was too late hitting send to get in on this. However, Rick will be using a pair with the surfer horns so hopefully he will be giving us some comparisons later on.
This is pretty much what I can remember of how the day went. I hope the other Bottleheads will add to this post those things I left out and/or things they differed in recollection or opinion about.
I also want to give a special thanks to Jack and Patty Roberts for having us and being such gracious hosts. Patty is a real sweetie and Jack didn’t even grumble very much as we basically tore up his setup moving things in and out of the room and in and out of the system.
FE206E comments
I particularly wanted to compare the FE206E’s to Jack’s Philco full-range drivers (alnico magnets), in addition to seeing what other comments the Bottleheads might have about the drivers. I think theFE206E’s are great. But don’t we all love whatever new toy we have, unless it turns out to be a real dog? When we got there, Jack’s horns sounded better to me than they had on the previous visit. Jack's horn/PhilcoDriver combo sounded to me like they were probably a good bit better in the upper-mids to highs – Jack did tell me that they had been sitting for probably thirty years and had been breaking in somewhat since our last visit, and that he had done some damping of the frame, etc. Also, it really brought home to me how much more I will benefit when I get my preamp and amp finished – things sure sounded great through the Lefty line stage and Jack’s 300B amp that was putting out about 8 watts.I asked for comments that I would post about the FE206E, surfer horn combination and the responses I got were;
Jim Griffin– very nice, would benefit from a sub;
Steve Killian– vocals are enjoyable as is the huge sweet spot;
Randy Carter – Dynamic sound, but also a nice ambient field, entire room is filled without noticeable bad spots.
Cody Ryan - Told me he wanted to buy them if I ever decided to sellThe combination did sound really nice. Without question, if price has much weight in the decision to purchase a driver with these specs, the FE06E is a no-brainer.
To me (hearing impaired over 4K) the Fe206E has a great mid-range that is wide in bandwidth, and with these horns it just seems to give an ambience that is very nice and difficult to describe. My stepson said they sound like really good headphones but better.
Caveats
I am not sure that I would recommend this particular driver/horn combination in smallish rooms. In Jack’s room and in my listening room, I have noticed that they really sound the best when you’re about 12 feet or so back from the front of the horn. They sound really good closer in, but to me they’re not magical until you move further back.
At this time, to me, there is something lacking in this horn/driver combo in the highest frequencies I can hear, and there is something missing up there that I could hear with the Scan-Speak D2905 tweeters of my other set-up. However, I have not yet unsoldered my speaker wires from the Scan-Speak Solists that are in my old setup. Also, the drivers have about 70 hours on them and someone said that'll be another 200 hours or so before they have broken in all the way. Regardless, I am so enraptured with the presence, ambience and musicality of this particular horn/driver combination that I could live with it as is (with subs) if needed.
How do you spell Super tweeter?
YMMV
Later
Follow Ups:
Hi to all,If I may introduce myself as the perpetrator of the Azurahorns aka surfers - thanks extremely for the appreciation shown. I was kind of anxious about the reception they would receive.
I would like to explain to all that I am not in business and am just a humble homebrewer. I made the mould painstakingly by hand to LeCleac'h s brilliant programme just for myself - because I am into building amps. I got a lot of support in the process from Dave Slagle and sent 3 pairs to NY. So far now I have made 13 pairs including my own.
If they sound good I believe it is all credit to Le Cleac'h, and also probably to the properties of fibreglass - which is a pain in hte ass as far as QA goes but is rigid and hard skinned. I think a solid integral throat is important - because this is the interface with the driver. Also the mouth should not ring. Obvious stuff.
No, my day job is not making surf boards - however the horns are made at the 'Loose Factory' - as in hang loose - by a great guy Rod who also has been a great support. Rod makes Hover Boards, boats, slides - and now horns.
As to the future I really intend these horns to be a unit with a L shaped 2.2m bass horn I am building - Perhaps I could post a picture. These have a vertical fibreglass section that could be broken over to mate wth the rear ofthe front horn - or used as intended with a separate driver. I designed it for a 10" SEAS CA25FEY using the MLeach paper and HornResponse.
I have a template made for a new Le Cleac'h front horn to a 175Hz flare 400mm deep, incorporating a fuller rolled back mouth. J-M says this may give an improvement. He also gave some advice on the flare factor. Interested to know if people favour the maximum extension possible - or see a benefit in shallower depth and a more spherical delivery wave.
My bass horn models flat 50 - 200 Hz at 104 dB with the above driver. Surprisingle it models fairly flat at 102dB on the rear wave of a Lowther driver. ie more sensitively than the front (c.97dB) now this may not prove to be the case - but interesting in that front / rear loading is not a lost cause.
On pricing and shipping the horns - I am not in this for any great profit, but the thrill alone will eventually wear out. I have not finalised a price with the shop but I expect I can make them for about A$500 a pair -depending on how the flange is made.
Shipping is a pain - I took the loss on the mix up - and apologise for the hassles. I cant understand how shipping works if they dont guarentee price and port of delivery - apparently this is not uncommon experience for furniture shippers. Group purchases knock the costs down hugely because stacking factor is so good (even with flanges)
Best rgds to all,
I appreciate your making the horns available to myself and others.No need to apologize for the hassles at all. Generally speaking, I would expect these sort of things to happen and see no way for you to prevent them.
Particularly, when you get into something of this nature.
I only made those comments to Jeff (jsalve) to let him be aware that such hassles were likely to be a part of the transaction, and that I thought the azurahorns are well worth the effort of any unexpected costs and hassles.
I really do think that you are doing the community of audio enthusiasts a great service by sharing these with others.
quite sincerely
Since we just cannot seem to get enough of the Aussie fronthorns, here is a pic of Jack Roberts' listening room with TWO pairs of the horns - Ken brought his so we could A/B the Fostex drivers against Jack's Philco drivers (salvaged from some unloved console setup). That'd be Steve Killian futzing with the speaker cables in the center.Yoiks!
Wow, Ken, that's some comment in your post about the construction of il Monstro - I don't think that my conventional construction will hold a candle (or a glow tube) to Stippich's fevered Nemo-esque constructions, but I do appreciate the vote of confidence. For those who are curious, I put up a quick pic of one of the signal chassis at the link below. There are three boxes left to finish: a mirror image left signal chassis and two monoblock power supplies. All will have matching tiger stripe maple bases with 13 gauge copper top plates and reworked transformers/chokes.
Thanks to Jack and Patty for a great afternoon.
/pRC
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Wow-- who makes those horns???
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mseddon@touch88.com.aulater
Hi Ken,Just curious what company you used and how much it cost to get these horns shipped?
Anyone interested in a group order to save shipping cost? I'm in Canada. Martin quoted ~US330/pair plus Shipping.
about 250.00 US to Charleston, SCI believe this included additional charges due to a mixup in port of entry. There was a high hassle factor when they arrived in port, involving customs, overnight fedex's, for additional shipping, etc. The full brunt of the hassle was handled by Jim Dowdy for which we will be eternally grateful.
Irregardless of that, If I were you, I would jump on it. It wouldn't surprise me if these things reach cult status. I have made some very enthusiastic posts. I have restrained myself to understatement even though it may not seem that way. They're that good.
These horns are not in regular production. I know there weren't many made and I was unaware that he had any left. Martin is an audio enthusiast that has done us all a favor by selling to us at such a low price. He is not making any money at this price. I believe the horns would be a bargain if your additional charges ran $500 US more.
They are well worth the money and potential hassle. You may well not have the hassle or YMMV
JMHO.
Thanks Ken, actually your posts about the Azura was the final push I needed. I was aware of this horn last year looking at Dave Slagle's system but did not find much comment about it. After I'm done building my Labhorn I'll have a 4 way horn loaded top to bottom. But with the Azura I might be able to simplify it to 2WAY, just the Labhorn and Martin's horn.Yes, for sure they're a bargain compared to what other horns sell for. Now I just I have to find someone closer to the Port to do a group order with since I'm 12 drive hours away from the closest port.
Agreed on the two way.BTW there is a thread in high efficiency speaker asylum that indicates 100 hz to 10k with the same amp/speaker has a lot of things going for it.
I was already thinking it but the thread helps clarify it as a goal.
There are a lot of opinions in that thread. Azurahorns fit right in with what Gordon Rankin and some others commented.
Why don't you contact a shipping broker and see how bad it would be for you to do it by yourself? Might not be that bad. I doubt it is the sort of business they are looking for ( too small), but they might give you some good input.
Later
Ken L
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Ken,As I said at the meeting, I would tackle the low frequency end before messing with the supertweeter. Given you are married to the large front horns, Phil's suggestion of backhorn loading would be one way to attain more bass. A back horn enclosure could also provide a nice solution which would hold and position the drivers with their front horns for more optimum sound and stable mounting. The low Q of the driver is not amenable to a mass loaded QWTL.
it's S-i-e-g ;-)The Fostex/Oz horn combo was really outstanding. Rather than a sub, why not mount the 206Es in a back-horn and then mount the front horn to the cabinet? No XO, high sensitivity, one amp.
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Hi Phil
Here is the thread from my post on this front horn/backhorn hybrid idea. I have wanted to try your suggestion and was amazed by the variety of perspectives on the subject.
Cheers
Jay
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i before e unless it comes after C and all that -"The Fostex/Oz horn combo was really outstanding"
Glad to know you thought so Phil. Particularly, since you have never been known to be shy about stating your opinion whether it was controversial or in agreement with others or not. _really big grin_"why not mount the 206Es in a back-horn and then mount the front horn to the cabinet? No XO, high sensitivity, one amp."
Actually, as I understand what you're saying on this, I looked into that somewhat Phil. I can't remember if it was Terry Cain or Dave A, or who, but they wound up using another driver for the additional horn. I don't think this was the Oz horns but was another front loaded horn. Also, on Bert Doppenberg's site someone had asked Bert a similar question about the Oris. Bert said that when he tried that the lower several octaves died.
There may well be some variation of that which will work well, but it seems like it might take a lot of doing to come up with the right formula.
It really was a delightful day and a beautiful drive up to Jack's house.
It was good to see you and Tina there.
Later
Ken
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