Welcome! Need support, you got it. Or share you ideas and experiences.
Hi Doc and gang!I hope you won't mind if I ramble on a bit on your forum. I still appreciate our E-mail talks last year, and I'd like your advice again.
As I'm sure you've noticed, I personally like to use high-quality, high-power amps with my speakers. I don't usually open them up much past "just barely," but I like having the option. When a speaker of 100+ dB sensitivity is used, then obviously a guy doesn't need much power. And I'm finding tons of guys are running Bottlehead amps and preamps with π Speakers.
So I'd like to buy a Foreplay and either a Paramour or a Parabee, and maybe it would be wise to have 'em both. Can't break the bank, it's almost tax time and Uncle Sam really needs my bucks. But certainly, the costs of your kits are more than reasonable.
The reason I'm writing is that I'd like some suggestions. I want to build the kits completely stock, without any "tweaks." I'll be careful about running sensitive conductors appropriately, and I'll do a good job when assembling them. And I have an oscilloscope, DVM and signal generator so I'm all set.
I'd like to build an example of what a person can expect if they purchase your kit and just follow the directions. The reason is that this system will likely double for demonstrations, if I were to ever decide to show my speakers with tube amplifiers. I want the demonstration to be of standard items. But I'd also liuke them to be your best options, and those that you would want to be used to represent your product offering.
If I were to go to a show like the gathering next weekend in Lima, I would like to take Professional Series four π Speakers and PiAligned JBL 2245 subwoofers to be used with Crown Microtech amps. I'd also like to take Theater Series four π Speakers with a pair of your best Paramour or Parabee monoblocks. I could then switch speakers and amps, and show each with the other. So that's my motive.
Besides all that - I just like having cool stuff, and I think your amps look really great.
When I was a kid, my grandparents gave me lots and lots of tube-based console stereos and things. They usually had a pair of 15" woofers with really tight suspensions, a pair of 2" cone tweeters and about 8 tubes. I would play with them for a while, and then pitch 'em. Sacrilidge! - No telling what I threw away! But there is one radio my parents gave me that I've kept, and I'm real proud of it.
Stewart Warner Model 13-5U five tube radio
This is what Stewart Warner was building back before World War II. I'm used to seeing them making tachometers and stuff, so this radio was always really cool to me.
The label says "Riley's 8-14-45 8 4508"
I'm not sure if the label was attached by a repair shop when fixing the radio or if it was put on when it was sold. But it is interesting to me that it dates the radio to at least 1945. I touched up the image file you see here so that you could read the label, but it is clearly legible to the naked eye.
Operating chassis. Notice the filaments glowing!
The five tubes are 35Z5GT rectifier, 12SA7 detector/oscillator, 12SK7 IF amp, 12SQ7 2nd detector and 50L6GT audio amp. The locations for each of these tubes is shown on a label on the bottom of the radio, so I went to Radio Shack and purchased the tubes. Remember when each store had a tube checker and they offered every tube with gold leads and a lifetime guarantee?
Even with new tubes, the radio still didn't work, so I had to dig in deeper. I could not find a schematic for this chassis, but I found schematics for a couple of other chassis that used the same tube set. Interestingly, neither had the same speaker or antenna configuration, but it was easy enough to modify circuit layout to suit the components used in the radio. Once I had come up with a suitable schematic, I made a couple of copies, and I keep one stored inside the radio cabinet.
Point-to-point wiring, of course
I had originally intended to keep all the original components, but found some coupling capacitors completely open. So it just wasn't possible because too many components were defective. I also found that the radio had been rewired and the filaments did not even make a complete circuit. Undoubtedly, a repair shop was missing one of the tubes that needed to be replaced, so the repairman made a substitution and rewired for its alternate pinouts.
So I decided to remove all wires and components, and start from scratch. That made it easy to clean the chassis completely. The components are good quality 1/2 watt and 1 watt resistors and polypropylene caps, and the wires are all the same ones that came out. Oddly, I had about two feet of wire remaining, in various lengths. Spare parts?!! Ahh, but it works well, and doesn't hum at all.
Field-coil speakers, legacy of the past
This was the part of the restoration that was a real drag. The field coil was poofed. I rewound that silly thing, because it just didn't seem right to substitute the speaker with a newer fixed magnet type. So I wound that thing for a week. The B+ supply passes through this field coil, but only about 70mA is required, so this 34 guage wire should be sufficient. I don't know if that's how the original radio ran the field coil, but that's how mine is done. It also has a humbucking coil, but there's 100uF across the B+ supply both before and after the field coil, so there is very little ripple and the humbucking coil really isn't needed.
Well, I hope I didn't bore you with my little radio and stuff. You guys over here probably all have a ton of these things. I just wanted to ask your opinions on the best stock version of Bottlehead amps to buy, and to show you my "tube rig."
Wayne
Follow Ups:
Thanks for stopping by. Very nice radio! Don't be too concerned about the authenticity of the small electronic parts in the radio. Unless it's some super rare crystal set from the 20's antique radio guys are much more understanding than Mac or Marantz collectors that trying to replace funky old parts with more funky old parts is a wasted effort. Most either don't bother to make them work, or they use modern parts just like you did. Re the field coil, one thing that struck me about most schematics when I was restoring radios as a business was that an awful lot of field coils tended run around 1100 ohms DCR, whatever the brand. I have no clue why, but that might be a good starting point for calculating the wire needed next time you need to rebuild one.Thanks for all the kind words about the amps. Like the rest of the gang, I too think you could go with either Parabees or Paraglows. The availability of TJ mesh tubes for either amp makes them sound fairly close. The Paraglow has the edge in resolution and that magical 3-D thing that SE amps can do it does exceedingly well, while of course the Parabee has the power edge and the whupass factor in the bass. I find lately that I can switch between the two and not miss much of what I heard from the other. Since I don't really want to spend much time switching amps, with the 96 dB Straight 8s the Parabees with TJs tend to stay in the system so I can put on Nine Inch Nails or Shostakovich whenever I want. With your sensitive horns, you could do that with the Paraglows and TJs and get the bit of extra resolution that the direct coupled circuit of the Paraglow offers, to boot. FWIW, the Parabee assembly manual is a more recent publication and thus has better quality instructions (we try to improve each new manual we write based on our customer's experience with the past manuals). It is also a bit more complex project to build, as it does get a little tight under the chassis and requires a patient assembly pace to complete. We have had many built by folks whose only previous experience was building a Foreplay.
I will also strongly suggest that you use the Whole Deal version of Foreplay with either amp. In that form it has the added refinement necessary to keep up with the resolution and control level of those amps.
I hope someday to hear our electronics with your speakers. I'm sure that will be a delight!
Thanks,
Doc B.
Thanks for your advice.As soon as I've "paid the piper" come tax time, I'll buy Parabees or Paraglows and the "Whole Deal" version of the Foreplay, just as you've suggested.
And, Doc, I've gotta grin at your comments for a moment. Last evening, Bill Martinelli and I were talkin' 'bout listening to Glenn Miller on tubes. Now that's something that seems fitting to me.
But NIN on SET? Now that's just over the top. And you play with guns too?!! You're my kind of guy. I'd say that the phrase "Bottlehead level" products means "top notch," even "over the top!"
You guys are my kinda guys. I'll be joinging you shortly.
Wayne
> But NIN on SET? Now that's just over the top. And you play with guns too?!! You're my kind of guy.The range I go to is about a mile and a half from my house. One of my favorite things to do is to head up there on a weekday afternoon when it's quiet in the neighborhood. I tell the wife and kids to listen for Dad's rifle when he goes to practice.
You want to understand transient response? I figure that picking out the sound of 7.5 Swiss at 2600 yards is good practice ;^)>
Doc B.
29dB muffs over 33dB earplugs (for the range, not necessarily for NIN)
Having fired a few NRA High-Power matches (first Colt-badged AR-15, then Springfield M-1 Garand with NM barrel and sights) with earmuffs over earplugs, I have to say I endorse the practice.
12 people online in a rapid-fire session makes a _lot_ of noise. (NRA rapid-fire = 10 shots in ~60 seconds, with time to drop to prone position.)When I used to own a Big Fast Car with no A/C, I used to wear earplugs for long drives.
A vintage radio. My son just loves them and it would be a good present. Any suggestions of where to pick something up would be appriciated.Thanks
I'm going to Lima this weekend but starting next weekend I start my garage/estate sale Saturdays. I will keep an eye out for a table top radio like that. I must of have seen a dozen or so of those last year.
Regards,Alfredo
There are heaps of vintage radios of all ages on Ebay, but most of these reflect the prices of an enthusiast collectible item.When I started collecting valve radios in the early 1980s it was almost guaranteed that any church fete or garage sale would be worth checking out, and even second hand stores were a good source. Usually half the sets you found were in at least passable working order. Nowdays however it is much less likely to find a nice vintage set in reasonable, restorable condition and almost impossible to find one in good working order. Prices have increased by 1000% in the last two decades as well.
Not being in the US I can't really advise on good sources, but there are plenty of specialist dealers who sell beautifully reconditioned sets (at a price of course). Spend some time researching the subject online - there is lots of good info out there. The vintage radio fraternity is as strong, fanatical and helpful to newbies as the valve audio community.
Good luck
PS - If you are interested in restoring a non-working set there are some excellent reference books available. "Valve radio and audio repair handbook" by Charles Miller is excellent, as is "Antique radio restoration guide" by David Johnson. For some guide as to how much you should be paying, and what to look for when shopping around, consult "The collector's guide to antique radios" by John Slusser. All these are available from Amazon, and you might find used copies on Ebay.
Cheers
TG
Thanks TG,I'll dig a little further. He would be happy with anything. Finding something to restore would be a large part of the allure... don't want anything that works. :)
The biggest antique radio swap on the planet is not to far from you, in Elgin, IL. Radiofest XXI, this year on August 9-11.
Wayne,
Either the paraglow or parabee would work well with high eff speakers. Some like a 2A3 amp best and they are detailed yet sweet. The parabee will have more power to ensure plenty of headroom. BTW, your radio is a 1939 model, very nice. Drop me a line if you need a Riders schematic for it.-Ed
Hi Ed!I got another radio today, and I'd love it if you could identify it and sell me a Rider's Schematic. I looked in both my 1926-1938 and my 1941-1947 collections of schematics and didn't find it. In fact, I found no schematics for any Airline radios at all. I've also got a book called "Evolution of the Radio", which shows lots of old magazine and newspaper advertisements and has several photos of restored radios. There are many Airline radios in this book, so I don't think it was terribly rare.
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Airline Radio, with AM and shortwave bands
The radio has the standard AM 500-1600Khz broadcast band and one shortwave band covering the band immediately above AM, from 1600 to 4000Khz. Interestingly, the dial is labeled in Hertz, but is calibrated like it might have been originally laid out in cycles - the left most deflection is highest frequency and as you turn to the right on the dial, your tuning frequency goes down.
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Five tube superhetrodyne unit, having two IF sections
The radio is a superhetrodyne, so that sets its manufacture date to something after the early to mid-thirties, I think. I suppose its styling helps date it too. It has tubes that were common in the late-twenties and early-thirties though - "80" rectifier, "35" IF, "57" oscillator and 1st IF detector, "57" 2nd detector and "47" audio output. The "47" is the tube that's visible on the right, and it looks like the tubes favored by SET amp guys.
Actually, those are all assumptions on my part. Except the tube set - I read those off the descriptive sheet attached to the chassis. If you could identify this radio, I'd love to buy the schematics from you. It's also missing a "57" tube, so I'll need at least that one. And unless the tubes are very expensive, I'd like to buy the entire tube set new, if possible. I may need to replace the passive components too.
Please let me know if you can identify this radio, and whether or not you can sell me the schematics and the parts.
Thanks!
Wayne Parham
Hi Ed!Thanks for the information. You've explained it - Years ago, when I was doing this thing - I bought John Rider's schematic collection of 1926-1938 radios from Antique Electronic Supply . Then later, I purchased the "Radio Era Archives, Volumes 13-16," which is for 1941-1947. That had schematics that were close, but not exact. Since my radio is a 1939 model, that explains why I don't have the schematic. I'm missing 1939 and 1940.
So thanks for your very helpful information!
Wayne
Hi Wayne,Fancy meeting you here! But, then it sure does seem that many of the recent posts on the Pi forum are about the "tube-iality" of your loudspeakers,esp. low power SE amplifiers.
I think what you want is the 2A3 based Paraglow. It is Doc's higher-end 2A3 amp with high quality iron that really should show off your stuff! The Paramour that Till E. and I have mated with the Theater 4's are more entry level, which, while sounding VERY good are more suited to someone who is wanting to get into the SE fun for little money, have great sound to boot and can anticipate the process of tweaking and modding until the sun comes up.
Then again there is the Parabee which is @ 8 watts of 300B power but at a higher cost and I think the bass of the 2A3 is better suited to the Pi's -less warm but I may be wrong here.
One other option is building the Paramours but substituting the JJ meshplates which Doc can supply, for the stock 2A3's, a switch some have said really sounds awesome. This would cost less than the Paraglows but still limits you with the neccesary economical components of the less expensive kit. I hope to try the meshplates in my stock Paramours in a few weeks so I could let you know what I think of them.G.
Hi Garland!Paraglows, huh? OK. That's a plan. I'll do Paraglows and the "Whole Deal" version of the Foreplay kit. Knowing me and my priorities, I'll cut the check to our good doctor before I cut the check to our dear Uncle Sam.
Did you post the pics of your speakers on this forum too? If not, you gotta put a link up. Perhaps a shameless plug, but more than that - Your two-tone finish is just killer.
Are you planning to be at Lima?
Wayne
You Know, Wayne ,you've given me an idea. If one were to buy enough of Doc's products and itemize on your tax return you might just be able to write off all your audio expenditures as medical bills! and no I haven't posted any photos here in a while so now that I have the Pi's and Paramours finished I should. I do want to work a bit more on the Paramours; I didn't take the time to do anything in a custom way on them since I couldn't wait to hear them with the Pi's.
Unfortunately, I can't make it to Lima. I'm sure it's going to be a blast. I especially like how it's swelled from the ground up: sort of reminds me of the music festivals that seemed to crop up mystically from the ether in the days of my youth. I know Pi is going to be well represented by George, Bill, and the others I can't think of right now, as will Bottlehead with Bill's Paramours and Foreplay. I imagine other B'heads are going as well.G.
Wayne,I'm just a Bottlehead fan looking at the latest posts. I know nothing about radios, but by coincidence an office colleague brought in an old (c. 1947, I believe) table radio and asked me if I could fix it. Guided by a useful post on one of the AA sites, I've discovered there's a wealth of info and radio lunatics out there. If you have questions about your radio, I'd suggest you try nostalgiaair.org, and antiqueradios.com has particularly good links.
Since I'm using Doc's site for this message, I'll add, apropos of the posts a few days ago, that I've built two modded Foreplays, one from scratch, with nary a hum or buzz, even with AC on the heaters. Careful wire routing and good solder joints go a long way.
If you've delved into the Bottlehead site, you'll know that your post on old radios will warm the cockles of several hearts associated with this forum. That Stewart-Warner is beautiful. And now I want to get an antique table clock-radio for downstairs.
As for "stock" Bottlehead equipment, both the Parabee and Paraglow are sold with parts and design that don't leave a lot of room for tweaking and improvement. The Foreplay is the teaser, the one that's inexpensive enough for people to rationalize away a failure. I would argue, perhaps, that the "Whole Deal Foreplay" is a Bottlehead kit and would give you the stepped attenuators, C4S loads, improved hardware and the good wire. It's right there on the page: I'd say that qualifies as "stock."
Hi Stewart and Bob!Stewart - Thanks for the good advice. The "Whole Deal Foreplay" is the version I'll get. That and a Paraglow.
And Bob - Thanks for the links. It's cool stuff!
Wayne
Yep , Sho is
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