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Well, just one fool's opinion...

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Phil Sieg

(R)

In Reply to: Bottlehead SETs vs OTL posted by tottman2 on February 28, 2002 at 05:03:59:

since I've had both OTLs (although not the Transcendent) and SETs. For me, there's no contest. I've yet to hear an OTL that can bring the delicacy and low-level detail recovery of a good SE45 to the table. In fact, I've never heard an OTL that can do anything better that a well-designed, well-built flea amp.
I've heard both types of amps on the same high-efficiency speakers (Classic Audio Reproductions T-1s), so it's not an apples and oranges case. If I were to rank topologies (assuming good design and execution), it would go SEDHT, PPDHT, SE Pentode (triode strapped), OTL, PP Pentode, in descending order.
Interestingly, the OTL amps sounded better the more output tubes I removed. Despite the OTL adherents arguments, iron ain't the problem.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutlely.

Follow Ups:

What's SEDHT & PPDHT - tottman2 07:12:46 03/01/02 (2)
Thanks...
After reading all these posts, I'm just about ready to buy a Bottlehead SET... when my income tax refund comes back.
Thankyou everyone for your thoughts.
Tom
- Re: What's SEDHT & PPDHT - Phil Sieg 07:31:35 03/01/02 (1)
  S ingle- E nded D irectly H eated T riode
  P ush P ull D irectly H eated T riode
  - Re: What's SEDHT & PPDHT - thanks - tottman2 07:39:20 03/01/02 (0)
    thanks
Re: Well, just one fool's opinion... - Jeff Lessard 22:12:35 02/28/02 (4)
Well let me disagree with you!
I had, still have and will always have SETs at home, I love them. I had 45, 300B, VT52, 2A3 based amps with most MQ irons air gapped, parafeed permalloy and parafeed cobalt trannies. I also had a 2A3 PP with an insterstage phase splitter since Ole Gizmo and Lynn Olson got me curious about this topology.
As good as all these amps were (and boy the cobalt 2A3 amp was really good) none could rival in delicacy and low-level retrival and musicality than the pair of Tenor Audio 15W OTL I have at home. These OTL are just plainly incredible, especially with my Lamhorns.
- Hi, Jeff... - Phil Sieg 05:51:39 03/01/02 (3)
  and this is what makes horse races. I haven't heard the Tenor so I'll defer. (BTW, their site is just so much marketing BS. A little info on the circuit itself would be nice. The sentence, "No technical white paper can fully describe how our amplifiers preserve the music's natural Harmonic Structural Integrity (H.S.I.)", sets off my bullshit alarm big time. Acronyms over substance.)
  Were any of your SET amps constructed with a DHT driver a la Sakuma-san? All transformer coupled? If not, IMO, you haven't heard the best the topology has to offer yet. But, as always, YMMV.
  - Re: Hi, Jeff... - Jeff Lessard 07:43:06 03/01/02 (2)
    I am not really into horse racing...
    Yep, marketing is marketing... You won't escape it. Everyone sell the best amp in the world.
    As for the acronym thing... just for a reminder:
    DHT
    SET
    PPDHT... ;-)
    The only way to judge is with our own ears.
    - Re: Hi, Jeff... - Phil Sieg 08:17:03 03/01/02 (1)
      As for the acronym thing... just for a reminder:
      DHT
      SET
      PPDHT... ;-)
      Yes, but we know what these things are. Conversely, I wouldn't know an HSI if it bit me on the arse. ;-)
      - Re: Hi, Jeff... - Jeff Lessard 12:24:23 03/01/02 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Hi, Jeff... posted by Phil Sieg on March 01, 2002 at 08:17:03:
        
        Who knows... maybe in twenty years from now every tube head will know about HSI. But then again maybe not...
        Anyway... The way an item makes music is why I'll buy. I don't care the marketing.
Re: Well, just one fool's opinion... - AnandR 17:38:06 02/28/02 (2)
Phil,
Correct me if I am wrong but, it seems like the problem with most OTL's out there is that the output stage topology is basically paralleling a bunch of triodes in order to lower the output impedance. SET's on the other hand and even Push/Pull SET's like the Amity are unique in that they have ONE or at most TWO output DHT's. This gives a sense of detail as well as dynamics which is harder to achieve in OTL's. It also can be used with just as many varieties of speakers. A 45 for example is comfortable with 103dB speakers while a PP DHT like Amity is comfortable with 90dB+ speakers. I am not entirely sure if it is necessarily true that power corrupts although that is a tough argument to beat when you hear a 45 Cobalt Parafeed SET feeding a pair of ORIS horns. But thank you for stating your favorite topologies, that is definitely an interesting way of looking at it.
AnandR.
- Re: Well, just one fool's opinion... - Phil Sieg 18:17:02 02/28/02 (1)
  Correct me if I am wrong but, it seems like the problem with most OTL's out there is that the output stage topology is basically paralleling a bunch of triodes in order to lower the output impedance.
  Correct. And you are also paralleling those same output devices to achieve more power. The problem is that the internal resistance and capacitance of the tubes varies with age (and construction) and plays hob with the time constants. The result is a smearing effect in which the low-level detail (that I think is essential to communicate the concept of real people making music in real time in a real place.
  SET's on the other hand and even Push/Pull SET's like the Amity are unique in that they have ONE or at most TWO output DHT's
  Obviously, one could construct a PPDHT amp with as many pairs of output tubes as needed to achieve the power requirement. But no one does. So given the single output stage construction, you get some advantages of SE with the harmonic distortion cancellation of PP. Take it one step further to a parafeed output and you can then switch to bridged SE with the same harmonic cancellation benefits and still have an SE output.
  I am not entirely sure if it is necessarily true that power corrupts
  Allow me to put it another way. More power than the speakers require corrupts. For example, the SE211 amp we had at VSAC always sounded too "technicolor". too splashy with loss of detail on my T-1s. But on the speakers that the designer built the amp for (~90dB), the amp is wonderful.
  But, in general, on speakers that are efficient enough to be driven by a 45 or 2A3, the higher power triodes (300B, 845 run at 1000V+ on the plate, etc) just don't cut it for me. Yes, they will handle the big stuff like orchestral crescendoes a little better, but they lose the microdynamics and detail. And God is in the detail(s).
  - Re: Well, just one fool's opinion... - Phil Sieg 18:20:43 02/28/02 (0)
    The result is a smearing effect in which the low-level detail (that I think is essential to communicate the concept of real people making music in real time in a real place
    OK, close paren and finish the sentence thusly. ")goes missing." Sheesh, Phil.

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