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I have recently completed building my Paramour amps, and now I have an all Bottlehead system with the Seduction and Forplay II. Up until the Paramours came in, I was using a vintage Pilot 240 integrated el84 PP amp with some Fostex 167e drivers in Voigt pipes. I ran the Seduction and Forplay in through the tape inputs. Anyway, the sound was quite good generally, a bit rolled off in the highs and lack of detail, but the bass was pretty good, to much actually. Now, after adding in the Paramours and running about 30-40 LPs, 5 CDs, and a few DVD movie audio through them, I would guess that they are fairly broken in. The problem is lack of bass. The Paramours are very detailed and clean sounding, way different that the Pilot amp, but only recording will really loud and deep bass seem to register bass sound. Other recordings that would normally have fairly normal ammount of bass, sounds quite flat. I don't listen to techo club bass music or anything, so I'm not talking about that kind of bass, just regular bass you would find in most rock music. There is bass, like I said, but it seems weak and thin. Could it be I am just used to the push pull sound that I had been using, and this is how a SET amp sounds (my Paramours are the only ones I've heard). Or do I need to break in the amp longer? Or should I be looking to augment my Fostex Voigts with a subwoofer? If so, any suggestions? BTW, I did add the C4S and that helped a bit, but mainly removed any trace of hum. Thanks for any help.
Follow Ups:
It took me a while to find the "right" combination but I finally achieved the sound I was looking for. Started with a stock Paramour and 167e backhorns (Fostex stock design) - I thought bass was a bit light, too. So I did the following (one step at a time):1) Switched to Sovatek tubes
2) Iron & cap upgrade
3) Changed speakers to Hammer Dynamics Super 12In every case, sound improved, especially with regard to the bass response I was looking for and I didn't lose any of the other good qualities of sound I like with my SET amp. By the way, each upgrade (in the order I listed) made more change to the sound than the previous.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions and info. My Paramours came with Sovtek 2A3s, so maybe the problem isn't the tubes.My Pilot amp does have a loudness switch, labeled In and Out. I was never really sure what that meant, but I thought it was a rumble filter for vinyl playback. I've never been able to find a manual that otherexplained it, but I do have a schematic. One direction of the switch would make it sound much more detailed in the high end, but nearly cutting out all the bass sound, while the would cut a lot of the highs out but the bass would return.
All voltages in the Paramours checked out within the 10% tolerance listed in the manual. I'm beginning to think that Paul Joppa's suggestion of a baffle step correction may be the solution here, as it seems that this is what I was used to hearing in the Pilot with the loudness circuit in use. It's either that or a subwoofer, but I'd rather not get a subwoofer at this point, as I know these speakers are capable of producing enough bass to satisfy me on their own. Also, in my first post, I said the speakers were Fostex 167E, when they are actually 166E, don't know if that makes much difference. One problem with the Pilot though was too much bass. Sometimes it would amplify the sub bass sound of edge warps on LPs and causing the speakers to pump in and out. So if I do the baffle step correction, I want to make sure that it has enough bass to sound good and full, but not enough to pump speakers with edge warp sub bass. I'll now search for this in the archives, unless someone wants to post a baffle step correction circuit that might work well with my particular speakers. Thanks again.
OK, that's the explanation then - you have been using the Pilot's loudness filter to boost the bass, giving a similar effect to baffle step correction filters. As I said, to my taste these BSC corrections are usually needed with narrow boxes, sealed, reflex, or Voight pipes. Sounds like your taste is the same!The circuit on the SEXy Speaker page is optimized for cabinets 8-9" wide. (For other widths, adjust the 0.033uF capacitor proportionately - bigger cap for wider boxes, smaller cap for narrower boxes.) This circuit is a shelving filter, boosting the bass below 250Hz by 6dB without increasing boost at the lowest frequencies, as a "loudness" equalizer would. It's astute of you to worry about the woofer pumping, those little Fostexes don't have a lot of excursion to spare.
You **MAY** also benefit from switching to a 1.5uF capacitor for the parafeed cap, or even 1.0uF. This will usually reduce the deepest bass (below 40-50Hz) to reduce pumping potential, while at the same time giving the 2A3 a better load in the 50-70Hz range. Of course the exact behavior is dependent on the speaker's impedance as a function of frequency - these are general guidelines, not a guaranteed performance booster! Also note, this is NOT a substitute for the BSC, it just squeezes out a bit better distortion performance in the deep bass near maximum power.
Excellent! Thanks Paul, and everyone else. I think this may well solve my "problem". So, basically, I can use the SEXy speakers BSC circuit as is, just adjusting the cap for the size of my Voight cabs? Well, I based my Voights on the Jeschke Pipes, although I did goof a bit on the measurements (confused the fact that the plans where showing the inside measurements and not the measurements for the pieces), so the width is a bit smaller that what's pictured there. It seems that my cabs are around 8" wide and 6' tall, so that means I can just use the SEXy speaker BSC circuit as is then, and wire it directly into the inputs of the Paramours, under the chassis. Well that seems simple enough. Paul, do you have any suggestions on what type of caps and resistors to use, or is Radio shack stuff good enough for this?
RatShak is fine to check the timbre; if you like it, then you might want to explore better caps. I'd use decent caps eventually - polypropylene dielectric anyhow. Among the inexpensive decent quality brands, we've used the Panasonic ECQP(U) series in Seduction; the SBE 716P series have a good reputation too (Antique Electronic Supply sells them). Boutique caps are out there - you pays your money and takes your choice!The 0.0012uF is optional, brightens the high treble a bit, but probably more sensitive to quality. Maybe a polystyrene there? The 0.033uF is less sensitive because of the 10k resistor in series, so I would hesitate to use an expensive V-cap in that position - but who knows? I haven't tried it!
Sounds to me like your ears have adjusted to the loudness switch. Loudness switches became popular when engineers discovered that at lower listening volumes, the human ear tends to have a harder time hearing bass frequencies. So the loudness switch is intended only to compensate for that tendency by boosting the bass frequencies substantially. It was only intended to be used when listening very quietly, so the frequency response "seems" flat, but not to be used at regular or loud listening volumes. If fact, my old man's Eico ST70 manual warned of possible severe speaker damage if you did (didn't stop us when we were teens!). Some were more sophisticated and curved the effect down as the volume increased.Sounds like you're very used to "too much" bass- maybe try listening for awhile and see if you readjust. Or, maybe your room eats up the bass and you need the boost....
I have the same thing with my speakers. I have Tosh 4960-FPII-Paramour (w/sovteks)-heresys. The middle and top and very clear and good, great with any kind of music. The bass is there but not too strong. For me, I have a room with three sides and then is open to the downstairs. Moving the speakers closer to the walls helped, you can hear the bass, but it does not seem to fill out the music. I am thinking of adding a powered Dayton to the mix.I did order a test CD and I am going to use that to take a look at the frequency response.
Any opinion on changing the caps as suggested in another thread?
Will the iron upgrade be offered again anytime soon? I would like to do that for sure. Also want to buy a Rega P3 and seduction, but am waiting to see how christmas treats my bank account.
Not a comment on your ears or anything, but have you tried measuring the in-room base response or either or both systems? You don't need anything fancy, just a Radio Shack sound meter, a CD of frequency tones & optionally a tripod. Setup the tripod near or at your listening position & adjust the volume to some reference frequency (1KHz is good). Get some log graph paper & plot out the SPL vs frequency & see what the curves do. Measure both systems & you will have a solid starting point.Your ear is the final judge (if you agree with that), but a frequency plot will tell you without a doubt what your system is putting out.
I'd mainly wonder about the Voight pipes. They have a reputation for a pretty lumpy response curve. If you are into this sort of thing & your speakers are built this way, open them up & add a small angle piece to chop off the tip of the pipe. You might like that better. Search around for TQWP or Tapered Quarter Wavelength Pipes, if you'd like to lear more.
Also, Joppa had a really key point about the baffle step problem. As opposed to electronic correction, you could try adding a couple "wings" around the drivers & see what that does. The link is to a popular Voight pipe design & a great explanation.
I don't suppose the Pilot has a "loudness" switch?Not everyone agrees with me, but generally I prefer the Fostexes with 6dB of bass boost, aka baffle step correction. A vintage loudness circuit is a decent approximation, so that possibility struck me. (A more remote possibility would be some problem with the Pilot's tone controls, if it has any. Google let me down, I did not find much on the Pilot - does it even have loudness and/or tone controls?)
If the Pilot is truly flat, then the Paramour should not sound that different. It does have some limitations in full power deep bass, but so does a Fostex - at reasonable levels with normal music, the response of the combination is pretty flat to well below the lowest bass guitar notes. Of course, at high levels, the 3.5 watt Paramour will sound wimpy relative to a 15 watt PP EL84 amp! But I think you indicated you are not listening at such levels?
The one difference between the Pilot and Paramour at all levels is the lower damping factor, characteristic of all SETs without feedback. That might have an adverse effect in combination with the room modes in a particular room. You might try moving the speakers a bit, to re-optimize placement for the different damping factor.
As always, check the connections in the Paramour. The coupling and parafeed caps, and getting the right wires on the output transformer, are the most likely places where a small wiring error could impact the bass. I am assuming the voltage checks were OK, of course!
Hope that helps! If there's something wrong, we'll get it sorted - this is a pretty good forum!
I've had the Paramours driving JBL 2226's and Eminence Delta Pros' with and without pre-amps. These are both 15" cone mid-woofers. The bass is fast, articulate and pumps mucho air.
To ask this of a 6" driver that falls off a cliff below 50 hz is just un-realistic. (And begs the question about the Pilot)
As Bruce Edgar likes to say" you've never heard real bass reproduction before" re: his horn loaded sub-woofer when people complain there isn't any "boom".
What kind of speakers do you have? I don't know what the output xfmr is these days, but Paul Joppa at one time recommended a 1.5uF parafeed cap, which raised the cutoff frequency and gave a "higher quality" bass on the reduced bandpass. I did that before I got the upgraded iron, which gives great bass (check that out if it comes available again). I've used larger drivers with mine, and even before the upgrade got good bass in my room.
Invest in some Sovtek 2A3's or some EH 2A3's. I found that the VA tubes lacked resolution on both extremes.
-Paul
I think 2a3 is all about mids and highs. However with the right speakers they can have plenty of bass. I think you should run a sub with them. Good Luck.
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