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DAC I/V Transformer comparison

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Hello,
What I/V transformer comes in the current DAC 2.1 level C with the signature digital board? And most importantly, has anyone tried swapping out these supplied I/V Transformers with the TRANS-496 (copper wired interleaved super mumetal 250 core) or the TRANS-497 (silver wired interleaved super mumetal 250 core)? and if so, please describe your comparisons.
Thank you

Follow Ups:

RE: DAC I/V Transformer comparison - footsurg 21:36:30 07/25/09 (1)
Sorry I did not address these questions when they were first asked. I don't follow the forums on a daily basis. All I can say regarding the 496 IV transformers is this. Yes they do make a huge difference but in exchange for a huge sum of money. I did a lot of upgrades to my 2.1C kit. Since everything has run in properly, I can now make qualified statements as to the level of improvement. In addition to the 496 IV upgrade, I put in Ultra HiB OPTs. I put siver foil caps and BG nonpolars on the signal board. I put in the 1865 "K" chip, and upgraded the digital input transformer to the best one Peter makes. I upgraded the PSU with BG PK's, AN copper foils, and Mundorf Lytic HV double capacity caps for the B+ rails. So a lot has been done. All I can really say is this. I once had an AN 4.1x Balanced DAC. This extremely upgraded 2.1C sounds to my ears MUCH better. I have about 5K invested in it. About the same amount as you can buy a used 4.1x balanced for. I would choose my upgraded 2.1C any day over the 4.1x balanced. Of course, my 2.1C has better OPTs, better signal caps, the same IV transformers, and much better PSU B+ power regulation. The 4.1x balanced has independent power supplies for the digital and analog stages where the 2.1C has only one PSU for both. So rather than tell you that it "sounds awesome"....which it does. To be more objective, I can tell you what it sounds like in comparison to a known AN finished product. I have not heard the 4.1x Balanced Signature which would be the next step up the line before you get to the Level 5 stuff. The Balanced Signature costs 32K. I would hope it sounds better than a modded 2.1C kit! BTW: I use an AN CDT-2 MKII transport (unmodded) and a SOGON 1M digital cable. I used the same transport and digital cable for my comparisons of both DACS. I know this does not answer the simple original question which was how much difference does the 496 IVs make. With the design of these DACS, I don't think you can skimp on anything. The weakest link will always shine brightly. I can say that when you take the 2.1C to the edge, it can and will outperform DACS in the big leagues. But you have to max it out to get this kind of performance. 5k+ is a lot to spend on a kit DAC, but it is well worth the trouble and expense once you hear it. You would have to spend a LOT more than 5k to beat it with a finished product DAC. I hope this helps, but I fear I may have created even more confusion!!
- RE: DAC I/V Transformer comparison - williamchildress 18:39:58 07/28/09 (0)
  Yes this helps a lot. Thank you for your thoughtful response.
  
  I took yours and others advise...
  
  I am in the process of having my kit put together and I am going with a very similar build... Ultra HiB copper output transformers, TRANS-496 IV transformers, TRANS-280 input transformer, N-K dac chip, V-CAP signal caps, Mundorf M-TubeCap powercaps, and a complete dual mono power supply (with an extra 5687 line board). With the response I got here and elsewhere -- figured I go as far as I could afford (don't tell the wife)...
  
  Thanks
did anyone answer your initial question? - Frihed89 00:56:34 05/24/09 (2)
What I/V transformer comes in the current DAC 2.1 level C with the signature digital board?

Who makes it? What is the construction + materials?

Here's a picture of the 496 from the AN website
"Live free or die"
- RE: did anyone answer your initial question? - williamchildress 19:09:43 05/24/09 (1)
  From my understanding (speaking to several & internet searches) I have concluded the following;
  The factory 1.x DAC does not have a transformer coupled interface -- instead its capacitors.
  The factory 2.1 DAC & the kit 2.1 comes with the TRANS-404 or TRANS-450 transformer (standard mumetal core)
  The factory 3.1, 4.1, and 5.1 Special comes with the TRANS-496 (super mumetal 250 core)
  The factory 5.1 Signature comes with the TRANS-497 (super mumetal 250 core & silver wire)
  
  Now I can only assume (by lack of response) that hardly no-one has coughed up the mega-bucks to swap out the kit transformers for the TRANS-496 or 497. footsurg (from this forum) has and raves about it -- but he did do several mods about the same time...
  
  But, from what I understand making the swap gives at least an equal amount of improvement at swapping out the output transformers (on the 2.5 C kit) to ultra cores. I cannot speak from experience since my kit 2.5 C is in the process of including it all from scratch.
  
  But, one may think to compare to the factory offerings -- as the factory includes the same TRANS-496 with the 3.1, 4.1, and 5.1 Special, but throws in advanced output transformers with the 4.1 and 5.1 levels. Thus, as one climbs the ladder you end up with more and more of the expensive goodies and a resulting improved sound... Thus, if you plan on going all the way, at some point you will have to cross paths with the 496 or 497, the factory does it earlier rather than later, thus, I can only assume this early inclusion of the 496 speaks to its importance within the chain.
  
  Thats my conclusion (right or wrong), so mine are on order (don't make the sticker shock any better though)
  - RE: did anyone answer your initial question? - Frihed89 11:34:44 05/25/09 (0)
    I think this is the sort of thing, Peter Qvortrup would be glad to discuss with you.
    
    I get the impression AN-UK spends a lot of time matching components as one moves up their scale. I wonder if there are interactions between the interstage transformer with the output stage (capacitor coupling vs. transformer coupling and with the power supply to the analogue and/or digital board.
    
    "Live free or die"
RE: DAC I/V Transformer comparison - mbhcid 18:44:51 05/14/09 (0)
Ping "Footsurg" for his assesment of the I/V transformers vs. OPT's. If i'm not mistaken, he felt the I/V's made the greater difference.
RE: DAC I/V Transformer comparison - DougE 19:03:59 05/11/09 (4)
Timely question as I am pondering the same question!

Brian will need to chime in with what comes with the 2.1 kit. I have heard the AN kits I/V in a few kits, and they really sound great. Given that, I am considering building an extreme kit, so I have the same question about the higher level factory AN I/V.

The 496 and 497 are quite dear, and they are exclusively used in the top level dacs--in the case of the 497, I believe they only show up in the level 5.

There is one asylum member who has put the 496 into his kit, and it would be great to hear from him!

Doug
- RE: DAC I/V Transformer comparison - AstroSonic 10:51:13 05/12/09 (3)
  I have a DAC Kit 2.1 Level C Signature with the standard IE core output transformers. With well over 500 hours of use, I continue to be amazed at its performence. Just when I think that I have a handle on its limits, an upgrade in the amplifier, reveals yet more detail, extension, dynamics and musical flow. I am not sure how much system upgrading the DAC will support, but it has already far exceeded my expectations.
  
  At some point it will be worthwhile to consider upgrades to the DAC. To that end, I wonder if there would be a greater sonic improvement from replacing the standard IV transformers with upgraded units (496 or 497), or from replacing the IE core OTs with Hi-B C-core OTs. Obviously replacing both would be great, but as a step on the 'upgrade path', which of these alternatives would be the most effective?
  
  Bob
  - RE: DAC I/V Transformer comparison - williamchildress 15:24:00 05/16/09 (2)
    OK -- so from what I understand from speaking to others. The I/V transformer upgrade gives as much of an improvement as going to Ultra HiB output transformers.... I cannot speak from personal experience though, just from speaking to others.
    
    Anyone like to comment???
    - RE: DAC I/V Transformer comparison - GTCharlie 17:27:45 05/17/09 (1)
      If by the I/V transformer you mean those small signal interstage transformer coupling the DAC chip to the grid of your output tube, then I would go for the I/V first. Then later, go for the higher quality OPT. Just my opinion.
      - RE: DAC I/V Transformer comparison - AstroSonic 10:43:05 05/22/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: DAC I/V Transformer comparison posted by GTCharlie on May 17, 2009 at 17:27:45
        
        Yes, once any 'underachievers' in the system are upgraded, there are usually more gains to be had by cleaning-up things upstream, and working your way down to the speakers and room. IME, even in an amplifier, upgrading things in the power supply and early stages provides a better sonic return than working your way from the output stage to the power supply.
        
        I looked for information and a North American soource for the 496 I/V transformers. Best I could fing was HiFi Collective in the UK. At 890 Pounds plus shipping a pair will cost around $2800 - actually more than the Level C Sig kit! Since the 496 is used in the factory assembled DACs 3.1x and 5, the sonic returns could be substantial. Given the nontrivial cost and lack of feedback, I'll probably pursue other upgrade paths.
        
        Regards,
        
        Bob

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